VBB 331 Alessandra Wall - Challenging The Fem Boss = Bitch Pretext!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

In a relentless search to find amazing guests for our podcast, I came across this profile. Psychologist turned executive coach advocating for women leaders and challenging the boss equals bitch standards that cage strong, ambitious women. After reading that, I immediately fired off an invitation. And we're happy to welcome Dr. Alessandra Wall to Virgin Beauty. Bitch. Welcome.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:00:49]:

Hey, how are you?

Christopher [00:00:51]:

Well, we're great.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:00:54]:

Oh my goodness. Did I write that? That's really good, isn't it? I did write it, by the way.

Heather [00:01:00]:

We were like moths to a flame.

Christopher [00:01:03]:

Now, you specialize in coaching and guiding senior executive women working as leaders in high-stakes male-dominated industries that often get them caught up in being misunderstood and often being called Bitch. Like, what drew you to that particular profession?

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:01:24]:

There are three reasons. One is the most superficial reason, I think, which is, and it's going to sound silly, but I was working with these women at a time when I didn't really understand what it was like to be them or to be in their world. I don't even think I had a true intellectual understanding of it. And when I finally got it, I was shocked and a little ashamed of how little I understood. What it takes to operate at a high level, how hard it is just to get into the right rooms. But even when you're in the rooms, to have a voice in those rooms, and when you have a voice, to not somehow be taken down for having a voice. So that's the simplest of it. In hindsight, I think there are a lot of similarities between the women I work with and myself as a little girl.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:02:20]:

Like, I've always kind of pushed myself into spaces where maybe I didn't belong or wanted to belong; maybe I did belong but didn't even know I did. And there's. It's always this double bind of being in there and wanting to kind of probably fix some of that. When you learn, when you're a psychologist, you learn every therapist is just trying to fix some childhood wound of some kind. So, even in coaching, I think this pays off. The third one is the parts about being a, and I talk about this often. I have a lot of people who only see the side of me that looks really strong, which I love.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:03:00]:

I've worked hard not to pretend to be confident but to own who I am, which looks really confident, even though half the time I own a lack of confidence. But I get this compliment all the time, mostly from men, but not only men, which is like, I'm so impressed. You're so inspiring. And I'm a little scared. And I've heard that with many expletives put like, you scare the shit out of me and other things like that. And it's said as a compliment to me. That's tough, right? It's like you do all the things you need to do to have a voice and to make a difference. But even when people are complimenting you, somehow there's this idea that you have to make yourself smaller or different or contort yourself to make people comfortable.

Christopher [00:03:51]:

But you didn't grow up with that perspective at all. That's interesting to me. Is it because you, as you said, put yourself into positions where maybe a lot of girls would not put themselves? So you got conditioned out of having this judgment put on you?

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:04:14]:

Actually, I think it's because my house was, in many ways, very stereotypically heteronormative, for lack of a better word. My dad was born in 1928 in Kansas, and my mom was born in 1939 in Paris, France. And my mom was a secretary. Back when. Back when there were secretaries. Right. It was a very Mad Men love affair. My dad was a breadwinner for a long time.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:04:36]:

Even when that flipped, there was a period in our lives when my father wasn't able to make money, and my mom was a breadwinner. As with her secretarial position, my mom wasn't an ambitious person. So I didn't get to see what happened when you played outside of the lines that people put around you. And then I became a psychologist. And as a psychologist, the truth is, especially because I owned my own business, I was the boss. I was the person with the most authority in the room.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:05:06]:

Nobody was walking in that room questioning my authority. And if they did, we probably weren't going to work together. So, in hindsight, I could look at the ceilings. In hindsight, I'm so thankful for the Me Too movement because there are so many things I took for granted where I was like, this sucks, but it's just part of the experience of being a woman that suddenly shifted into, whoa, whoa, wait, this sucks, and it's absolutely not okay. Those things created shifts where instead of just getting angry, which I've got plenty of anger, but instead of just being angry, I found myself wanting to inspire and activate women to do something about it. Really, truly, like, let's do something about it, and let's stop counting on other people to be better, do better, show up better. I mean, I love it.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:06:00]:

I want people to do that. But I'm a control freak. And in this world, I'm like, I gotta count on me, and I'm gonna help you count on you and be accountable to yourself for the things that you want.

Heather [00:06:10]:

To me, that really sounds like this show that we know and love, the one who's accountable to herself to do what she needs, and she's able to articulate it. And we love that you don't shy away from the word because it's something that, you know, has such an impact. But can you walk us through what that is like for the clients that you've worked with? You know, like sometimes women shy away from being that bold because they don't want to be called a bitch. How have you used that word as maybe a leverage for people, especially women, to understand themselves better?

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:06:48]:

Well, a couple of things to answer the first part of your question. It's exhausting. I'm not sharing any big truths, but it really is like it's exhausting to contort yourself to fit the needs of others. Whether it's trying to stretch yourself to look bigger and bolder and more assertive and more or more outwardly aggressive than you naturally are, or the opposite, trying to make yourself soft and sweet and calm and just so, just so people will not react to what you say, but maybe stop and listen. I don't often use the word bitch with my clients. And what I mean by that is we refer to it all the time. I talk about.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:07:26]:

And it's not because I don't cuss. I cuss a ton with my clients, but I don't think they see themselves as that. It's more of this idea of, where do you not have authority? Where technically, you should have their titles? There might be C-suite leaders, or VPs, or the business owners or matriarchs of their households. Right. Where are the places where, technically, your title, your position, says you should have some authority, but the reality is you don't? The second you step in and try to claim that authority, one of several things happens. So one is internally, that feels really uncomfortable.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:08:01]:

I have one client right now who probably, in some people's minds, fits the bitch category because she just knows what she wants. She needs to slow down and listen to people just a little bit more. But she's very unapologetic and very aggressive in her language. But what she'll say is she learned to be that way because she was the only woman in the room. And when she showed the softer side of who she was, she got dismissed, and people didn't listen. So, over 20-plus years of her career, she learned to make herself very big and very in people's faces, and has been very quick to respond. Now that's coming back to hit her in the face, right? It's not working for her, and we suddenly have to recalibrate everything and get her back in touch with the fact that she is, at the core, somebody who's a lot more caring. But she's put that side of her away in all places, like a mother, a spouse, and a boss.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:08:58]:

We have to recalibrate everybody's opinion of her while teaching her a whole new skill set that she once had, but she's lost for lack of use.

Christopher [00:09:09]:

Well, lack of use. I like, probably a lack of value outside of herself.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:09:15]:

Yes, yes, yes. Both. Absolutely, Christopher, both. Yeah.

Heather [00:09:20]:

I mean, that is really the tricky part because, as you're saying, for so much of our lives, we're trying to fit into this mold of expectations that either society says is becoming of a woman or a lady. And we would love to hear your thoughts on that. But also, you know, when these traditionally feminine characteristics, shall we say, of being softer and collaborative and easygoing, when those things didn't work for us to get to the results that we wanted in our careers, in our lives, the authority or respect that we wanted in, in our families, you know, it's like this kind of overcompensation that happens and then you're met with a whole new skill set or a whole new challenge set of how to evolve from there. So what was it like for that client? Because I think that it's delicate to find your inner authentic self, rather than the push and pull between what you should be.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:10:25]:

So this is where I'm going to be super biased and say that's why you hire therapists or coaches. Right. I mean, because what happened for us is a series of conversations. And you know what? They weren't conversations about work. The conversation started about motherhood and parenting, even though I'm hired to do corporate executive coaching with her. And then looking at the patterns in those relationships and going, oh, like I recognize that pattern. That's a pattern that comes out at work. And then being able to talk about where this is coming from? Because I started my career as a psychologist, it is pretty easy for me to look at those patterns and pull them further.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:11:03]:

These aren't therapy sessions. But everything we do is about our identity. So you asked earlier, you said, you know, how do you help people out of this? A lot of it starts with redefining who, not redefining, with helping people actually define in this moment who they are and what it is they need. So, on the other end of the spectrum, I have another client, same thing, a senior executive.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:11:30]:

When I first met her, she looked really soft and sweet, and she's definitely your top definition of has a seat at the table, but hasn't had a voice for at least a decade and getting trampled by her supervisor watching her, like, come on calls and she's older than me and saying, when I grow up, I want to be like you. And I used to tell her, do you know how, like, I am a mess. I have all my own insecurities and issues. Like, I don't. I don't hide them. But getting her to a place where she can finally understand what it is she deeply wants and needs, and realize the massive disconnect between the way she's operating in the world today as a leader and the value she holds and the things that she wants as an individual. Once we do that, it's so much fun because not only is it so much easier then to work on the systems and strategy things of getting her to show up more powerfully, to use her voice to advocate for the things she wants, but we have all these doors opening up, like these job offers that are coming in, that she wasn't even looking for a new opportunity, but because she's showing up more powerfully and she's excellent at what she does.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:12:41]:

Right? So it's. The two things are matching up. People are coming in. We just negotiated, or we wrote at least an email describing what she wanted from this opportunity that was coming in. And all I did for her was say, you said she's like, yeah. I'm like, why is that not in your email? We usually put that in your email. And she sent me a message the other day.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:13:02]:

She goes, okay, I would have never said these things on my own, but this is so right for me, and it's so aligned. And even if I don't get this job, I know that this is exactly how I need to show up. It all comes down to defining who we are and then making sure that that definition is expressed in the way we show up.

Christopher [00:13:26]:

It's really fascinating because Heather and I are working on a project where we use bitch and we break it into an acronym. The first of those letters is Betrayal. That's the Betrayal of women and that gender throughout history, compared to what is available for men and what is not available for women that men have access to. So, that is a betrayal. But the second, the I, is identity. And it is about exactly what you're talking about. It's about knowing what it is you want as an individual, not playing a role, not living up to others' expectations. Why has it become so difficult? I know men go through this too, but I think we have an easier path through life, even if we don't know ourselves intimately.

Christopher [00:14:22]:

For women, you have to pretend to be something else to get where you think you want to be. And you never get to know yourself.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:14:30]:

And I know one of the topics y'all like talking about is redefining the feminine. And I shared with you before we started this episode. So when I was a little girl, my friends would make fun of me so much for this. So the second I'd walk out of the house, my mom would be at the front stoop. We lived in France, so it's different. Try to picture what a French house would look like, and she'd go, Alessandra, remember to behave like a lady.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:14:58]:

And all my friends would go, remember, behave like a lady. And I told my mom later, I'm like, my brother's name is Christopher. I'm like, you never told Christopher to behave like a gentleman ever? And she's like, yes, I did. I go up to Christopher, and I'm like, did she ever tell you to behave like a gentleman? No. Exactly. I think it's so difficult because very well-meaning parents were all conditioned. You have generation upon generation. I don't think it's now. I think you could go back 200 years, and we'd still have the same problem.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:15:25]:

Very well-meaning parents are conditioned. Mothers and fathers are conditioned to believe that for a girl to be okay and to be accepted by others, she has to behave in a certain way. So we start early. Be humble, be sweet, be kind, you know, don't be too loud, don't be rambunctious. I was a kid with ADHD who didn't even know I had ADHD. So I literally was climbing up walls on the roofs of my friends' houses, into all kinds of shenanigans. You know, we still used the word tomboy at the time.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:16:07]:

I definitely was a tomboy who loved dresses. But yeah, I was just biking around. I think it becomes hard because we're conditioned from the time we're old enough to interact with other human beings, to behave very differently. So, Little girls are taught in preschool or whatever. I started my career as a child psychologist, by the way, so they're taught to share more, to be more patient when other people break their things. There's this great book. Have either of you read it? It's called Rage Becomes Her.

Heather [00:16:40]:

No, but I have heard of it.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:16:41]:

It's so good. Even the author talks about the story with her daughter. Her daughter would go to preschool and would build these things, build this block structure. And there's this little boy who would break the structure. She'd build the structure, and the little boy would break it. So, she did all the things she was taught to do. She started instead of advocating for. She moved the structure away. She tried to guard the structure. Then, she would use her words and tell him not to. Then she'd tell the teachers.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:17:02]:

And all these excuses were made for this little boy. I have two sons. So all these excuses were made for the little boy, for why he was more rambunctious, and he did it. And she was just taught that she needed to accept.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:17:21]:

Even the author said that even she found herself caught in this, wanting to address it nicely instead of just teaching her daughter to go break the boy’s structure and say, do you see what it feels like? And use empathy at that point. His ability now to empathize with her experience, to maybe break the pattern. Little girls from the time we were teeny were taught all these things. And our parents aren't necessarily misogynistic or anything. They're just. We're all socialized.

Christopher [00:17:54]:

Yeah. We do live in a world where, typically, men have more physical strength, and we want to not have our daughters being bullied physically by boys who are physically stronger than they are. So there's that going on in the brain as well as parents.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:18:14]:

I mean, I was talking with. I was sharing a story the other day at an event about this moment, and it was. I was at an event. It was me. The person who invited me was a woman, and the rest were eight men. And we're talking. This topic got brought up about the fact that I was held up at gunpoint once, and what was my reaction? I said, oh, I'm very calm under when really bad things happen.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:18:39]:

I'm very calm now. The kitchen's a mess. I lose my shit. But when really bad things happen, I'm super calm. And I walked them through my thought process.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:18:51]:

My first thought process was, I hope I don't die. I don't think my parents could take this; this would be really bad. My second thought process was, I hope he doesn't rape me. Or, they don't rape me. Then my thought was, if they raped me, I wonder if I can ask if they'll wear a condom. And then I happened to be with a male friend, and I thought, God, I hope he doesn't try to be a hero. He shouldn't die over this, right? Like this inner strength of like, I can handle the trauma if that was done for me, but I don't. And the guys looked at me, they're like, that's a lot of thoughts. I'm like, that's being a woman.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:19:28]:

That's being a woman.

Heather [00:19:29]:

I just want to circle back because I think these two things are connected, that, you know, if you're thinking of what it means to redefine ladylike, what does that mean to you?

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:19:39]:

Now I know I was going to say I think or I believe it's neither of those. I know that being ladylike is not a single definition. I know that there's a spectrum of ladylike from our stereotypical hyper-feminine women who deserve to stand in that space and own every single beautiful, soft, pretty piece of it, to women who don't give a shit about having children, do not have a single maternal, maternal bone in them, and just have things that they want to do and conquer. One of the things I really believe is pretty true for most women and a great differentiator for us as leaders is that women are super collaborative. So whether you're on this like frilly side or this hyper-feminine per stereotypical feminine definitions, or this other side, the other extreme, women tend to try to figure out how you can work with other people to make things happen, when that disappears. Where that disappears is when you remove opportunity from women. So all of us know a woman who we label as a bitch because she's gotten to the top and she is guarding the top man. I heard that somebody told me the expression punching down.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:21:04]:

So she's punching down to keep her space. I think that's the exception and not the rule. And we see that when somebody has been forced to conform, contort, diminish themselves, like suffer so much a little bit like a bound foot to get to the top, that once they're there, they cannot stand the thought of losing what they've already given up so much to achieve.

Christopher [00:21:29]:

I find it interesting that in the United States, you've had these really very, very charismatic women run for the presidency, and almost each and every single one of them ends up with the B word behind them. That has to be so discouraging for any woman looking in that direction as far as pushing their career in that direction.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:21:54]:

Yep, I would agree. I mean, America, for as advanced as we think we are. The first seven years of my life, I lived in three different countries in the Middle East. We're so far behind. We're like, in terms of values and morals and guiding principles. And just like that whole openness of mind, it's all, it's very superficial. And the fact is, like, all of us bear responsibility for us. All of us are paying more attention to what color of shoes, or whether she wore a pantsuit, a dress, or a pair of jeans.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:22:30]:

Then the words that came out of her mouth, or whether her hair was properly done. All of us do it. And that, to a certain extent, is evolutionary. Humans are visual animals, so we make a lot of judgments based on what people look like. But we've also, again, been conditioned not to judge men. Like not to pay attention to that with men. It is disheartening. I do not believe. I'm 47, and I do not believe America will see a female president in my lifetime.

Christopher [00:22:57]:

I don't think it's ready.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:22:59]:

No, I don't. I don't think. I don't think we'll see a female president. I was really, really happy to see a black president. I don't know when the next time we'll see somebody who's not a white Christian president or a white purported Christian president. I don't know when the first time we'll see a president who's an atheist, for example. Just somebody who's coming into the space and being agnostic. It is disheartening. It's disheartening because it carries all the way to the top.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:23:30]:

So what we're seeing with the younger generations is there's this massive backlash against strong women and against women in power. And it isn't correlated with data about what women are able to achieve when you give them an opportunity to lead. The countries that were led by women during COVID came out of COVID faster, sooner, and better. Companies that have more women in higher levels of leadership tend to be more stable, more profitable, more innovative, literally. In terms of the FDA, patents will get more patents given to them. So, data tells us it's good business. But people's inner fears and this tendency to want to create an us versus them mentality mean that we're going to continue entering the Dark Ages, right? We're in the midst of a, and I thought of this about 10 years ago, I'm like, oh, we're re-entering the Middle, the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:24:27]:

So I know there'll be a Renaissance, but again, I don't know, am I going to be an old lady by the time we come back into the Renaissance? Better than nothing. But yeah, it is.

Christopher [00:24:37]:

That's interesting, the parallel, because the Dark Ages, I mean we just had our Black Plague.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:24:43]:

We did, we did. Right. And look at all this. We're going to reconstruct; we're going to become hyper-religious in all the wrong ways. We're going to. There's a fight against science, and if we look at spaces right, women right now are receiving more postgraduate degrees than men. Again, as a mother of two sons, I would just like things to be balanced.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:25:05]:

I don't need women to outstrip men. Oftentimes when I'm having conversations with men about what I do, I say I just want to see what it looks like when women screw up at scale. Totally don't believe that women are fundamentally better than men. I just don't know what it looks like when we screw up at scale. What are the mistakes we make, and then we can figure out which kind of leaders belong in which spaces? That's what I'm interested in doing. I want to see women, and this is the work I'm doing. So what tends to happen with women in senior leaders leadership is women get all the way to the top and once they get there, they're like it because they either, as I say, they have the titles, they have the compensation, but they don't have any voice, so what was the point? Or they get up there and they're like, things were supposed to be better.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:25:55]:

I'm technically, I've proven myself, but they don't really have the freedom, the impact, the influence they wanted to have, or they've burnt themselves out so much once they're at the top, because the system still isn't built for most average women. Let's just say it's just too hard. So the thing that happened with the New Zealand Premier was that she got up and after a few years, she's like, I'm out. It's too much, it's untenable. That tends to be what happens with women in senior leadership. It's already only a teeny portion of women who get up to senior leadership, and so many of them step down far too early. So what I'm trying to do is to make sure that when they get up there, we position them to have the things that they were promised, influence, and impact some authority. Not so that they can bang people down, but so they can create change. A life like freedom.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:26:49]:

Isn't that the whole point? I'm supposed to work really hard and get to the top, and then maybe I can catch my breath, and then we create stable ecosystems for these women to lead well with men and with other people and we have a better society.

Christopher [00:27:04]:

I vote you for president.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:27:07]:

I'm too ethical. I'm too ethical and too smart to ever go into politics.

Heather [00:27:16]:

I do definitely see that as our vicious circle, though, especially like with how scared people are about war and what is happening around the world. It's like they continue to elect men to get us out of the decisions. That has been based on a very combative mentality. So what do you see as people being able to reshift that if we keep voting the same way, we're getting the same results? Because I feel that when people are scared about their own country sovereignty, they go with the strongest, most, you know, almost fearful, aggressive, masculine, that they can find just so that they have the big bully on the block that's not going to get pushed around. Where does a woman's leadership not like that? She doesn't need to change who she is to meet that. What you talk about, that rising into a position where male characteristics are what are prized to get there, but not what's needed at this time at the political level.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:28:23]:

I don't know, because there are too many. There are too many people you choose. I remember in my household when Biden stepped aside, and my husband was so hopeful. He was so excited. He's like, this is going to be huge. This is going to be it.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:28:42]:

And I looked at him, and I'm like, they need to put a white male. They need to put a white male. And he goes, what are you talking about? This is it. I'm like, she won't get elected. He's like, no, no, no. You'll see. And I'm like, she's not going to get elected. She's not going to get elected. Not because I didn't think that she would be great. I don't know whether she'd be great. I haven't seen it yet, right?

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:28:56]:

But I'm like, America will not vote for her. It doesn't matter. It does not matter what she does. So maybe the solution, and maybe the reason I push so much for this stuff to happen at the business and corporate level, is that when we reach that critical mass of people who are seeing leadership. So when you say the word leader, in their mind, either a woman or a man can appear in their mind as opposed to immediately, if I say, oh, I was talking to the CEO of this company, I was talking to the head of a Fortune 5 company, though, they're always going to see a man.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:29:38]:

Maybe when we get to the point where, at a business and corporate level, we picture women, too, then it'll be easier to picture a woman at the helm of this country for America. Clearly, for the rest of the world, this isn't the case. There are so many countries on the African continent that have women presidents, right? We've seen Germany have, you know, a female chancellor. We've seen Britain have female premiers. Like, we've seen France. I mean, this is an American problem right now. A very American problem.

Christopher [00:30:11]:

I think Heather and I had that conversation prior to the election, and I think the conversation went exactly the way you just described it.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:30:18]:

My husband was. I mean, I was crushed. I was crying, I was scared, and because I was actually sleeping in my Harris, Wallace T-shirt the other day. And he's like, we won't go back. And I'm like, yep, we did. But that was the goal, right? And he is a rational, he's a super-rational, informed person. But he was so shocked. And I was just sadly proven right. That's the only thing. I was crushed to be proven right. And he'd gotten me just hopeful because he's the pessimist and I'm the optimist.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:30:54]:

I'm like, oh, you see this as possible. Maybe it could happen. So when it didn't, I'm like, damn it. It's the one time when that role reversal was right. But we see it. We see it all around, and I think part of it is the work you're doing. And to me, what's so important about what you're putting out, and the beauty of this podcast, is that we do have to redefine what it means to be feminine. We need to start removing words like soft or, better yet, not associate the word soft with weak.

Christopher [00:31:33]:

Exactly. Exactly Right.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:31:35]:

Softness is beautiful. I would like a soft landing rather than a hard landing if I'm in an airplane. And that's something that's properly executed, that's efficient, smooth, and well done, right? So we need to redefine all these adjectives that we associate with women and with femininity need to be redefined, and our definition of femininity needs to be expanded. And then we have to stop putting this word in place of boss, or in place of powerful or assertiveness. Assertiveness is the highest form of communication, period. As a psychologist, when you teach people healthy communication, you teach them to be assertive. We can't say that with men, that's great, and with women, it's a terrible thing that we're supposed to be passive or passive-aggressive, which is basically what we want women to be.

Christopher [00:32:25]:

It's interesting because when you started this conversation, you started with how men compliment you for the way you carry yourself. And a lot of them express fear in the way you carry yourself. Even though they respect it, they fear it. So they don't necessarily want to go there with every woman they encounter.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:32:48]:

Right. Oh, and I'm sure it works against me. That's the thing, right? So there are two, there are two quotes that I love pulling. One was from a friend of mine. It was after Larasaki, but he's got a really powerful wife. Like, she is, she is a strong woman.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:33:05]:

So it surprised me when he. We were talking about strength in women, and he said, you scare the shit out of me. And I'm like, what do you mean? And he goes. I invited him to be on some professional things with me. And he said, well, you just walk in, and you're clear about what you want, and you speak directly, and like, you get to the point. And this is, as somebody who's also the person in the conversation who's touching your shoulder when I'm talking to you.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:33:29]:

I'm super casual. Like, so that warmth is there, but it's the confidence that was scary. And then another guy who's also a leader, and he said it as a complete compliment to my face. He's like, I just want you to know, I really, like, I'm really impressed by you. I really, really respect you. And you scare me a little bit.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:33:51]:

And again, when we ask about that, it's that, it's walking into a space with conviction and just being like this, like, just being clear. I'm like, how is this scary? But they're not the only ones. So it's okay if it's said like that, there's warmth. There's probably a problem with it, too. I'm probably losing opportunities. The problem is, how about all the people, men and women, who take those same qualities and go, I know she's really good, but she's like kind of an image.

Christopher [00:34:17]:

Absolutely. But that then disqualifies all the things that I respect about you. I can compartmentalize it and put it down here easily.

Heather [00:34:28]:

Well, I think the beauty of it is, you know, that each and every one of us, you know, it's as you said, you know, that it's not just one way that you present yourself. Like, you know, let's say it's hiring that coach and getting to know that authentic voice that's really truly you. And you know, regardless of how that's interpreted by someone else, that you're walking through the world with that conviction. I mean, you can't. That's something that I feel like when she makes her own stage, you can't tear her off of it because she's really made it for herself, you know, easier said than done. I mean, words can bring anyone down. But I feel like the women that I see who have really, you know, made that platform for themselves are the ones who you can call me whatever you want, but I've really worked a lot on who I am, and I'm really happy with that person.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:35:19]:

I often give an example. When I started as a psychologist, I was 26. And they don't get this when I talk about it in Europe, so I have to find the brand for Europe. But I'm like, I shopped at Talbots and Christopher, I don't know if you have a context for this, but Talbots is like these super conservative sweater sets. They're not meant for 26-year-olds. But I was Dr. Wall.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:35:41]:

I wanted to come into the room and show up as Dr. Wall, but in my head, I was sitting there going, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I get to do this. This is so awesome. I'm so happy to be in this room. This is really amazing. Like, I want to talk to them about all these things. And I spent a few years trying to play Dr. Wall.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:35:56]:

It was really hard because, in my head, I'd have to, like, vet every single thing I said to match what I was told. A therapist should be distant, you know, there came a point where I was like, I can't do this because I still do have that add. So I have impulsivity in terms of I just want to say what I say. My mind moves at a thousand miles an hour. And I let go of that.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:36:23]:

And then I just started showing up as me in the therapy room, showing up as me meant sometimes. I remember walking out with a patient of mine whose daughter had made a suicide attempt. She's fine. And he was crying. I look at him; I'm like, do you need a hug? He goes, yes. I'm like, I give real hugs. Like, I need you to know that I'm not going to pat you and rub your back. Like, I'm going to, yeah, so I just held him for like a good 30 seconds.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:36:44]:

If you've ever given somebody 30 seconds, that's a long hug. You know what he got every single session. For many years, we worked together on a variety of different things. A hug, and I would joke, and I would give advice sometimes, and I would curse. And in allowing myself to show up as myself, imperfect, I became a far better therapist.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:37:12]:

My patients made gains faster. The gains were solid. I still am into it. I haven't practiced since 2022 in that space. But I'm still in touch with some patients, and they'll still talk about it. I get to see the shifts. Actually, one of my patients is now in my gym, which is always a little bit strange initially, but I get to look at the changes people make. And I'm like, that happened because I was allowed to be myself.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:37:37]:

And in being myself, I could be the right person for the person in front of me. If we can allow all women to do that in my space, if we can allow female leaders to do that, then we're going to get them to be better leaders. Better leaders for everybody make everyone's life better. It makes the bottom line better. But beyond that, it makes the humans who are under the leadership of this individual happier, better, and healthier. It's just a win-win.

Heather [00:38:05]:

Yes. Yes. Well, it was just so wonderful to have you. Can you let our listeners know where they can find out a little bit more about you and connect with you further? Because you've been such a joy to have on. On our show today.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:38:22]:

It's been, it's been so much fun. Thank you so much. Two places, one, and I'll be honest, it needs to be updated a little bit, it would be my website, which is noteworthy. Inc. So Inc. For the Inc. And then the other thing is LinkedIn. I am, I am most prolific.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:38:41]:

Oh, and I'm on Substack now under @ Dr. Wall says, so DR W A L L S A Y S. I love writing content, so that's my new space to share content.

Christopher [00:38:53]:

Fantastic. I'm so happy that one of the words in our title brought us together.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:39:00]:

Me too.

Christopher [00:39:01]:

This, this is fantastic.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:39:03]:

Thank you. Thank you so much. And when you finish that work, please send it over because I have so many women I need to share it with, and men I have so many good men I need to share it with.

Christopher [00:39:12]:

Absolutely. We may even touch base with you to get some of your feedback because you work with us every single day.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:39:18]:

Absolutely. Anytime.

Christopher [00:39:19]:

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Dr. Alessandra Wall [00:39:21]:

Thank you.

Christopher [00:39:22]:

And you have been listening to the.

Heather [00:39:24]:

Virgin, the Beauty and the Bitch.

Christopher [00:39:26]:

The Bitch Bitch, bitch. Yes.

Heather [00:39:28]:

Yeah.

Christopher [00:39:29]:

Find us. Like us. Share us. Come on back. To become a partner in the VBB community, we invite you to find us@virginiabeautybitch.com, like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are defiantly different, like you.

Until next time, thanks for listening.