VBB 329 The Snow White Dilemma!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:21]:

Once upon a time, there was an unwritten code between women and men, feminine and masculine: The code of romance. It was a code of mutual respect and an understanding that in crisis, women's safety was more crucial than a man's life. Since men can't create life, he adopted a code to protect those who can. In the face of danger or disaster, it was women and children first. In times of war, it was men who sacrificed their lives to preserve family and home. This became the code of chivalry, of men opening doors and men carrying the heavier load, not because women could not, but because it was his hero moment. However, for some men, this show of bravery and strength was translated as women's weakness and an opportunity for payback or exploitation.

Christopher [00:01:30]:

Over time, the code of romance has been corrupted to a point where even the good deeds of good men become suspect. And traditions of chivalry, like the ones told in old-time stories, such as fairy tale stories, are being desecrated. I say all this on the heels of the Disney remake of Snow White starring Rachel Zegler, who made who had this to say about the code of romance and chivalry.

Rachel Zegler [00:02:03]:

"You know, the original cartoon came out in 1937, and very evidently so. There is a big focus on her love story with a guy who literally stalks her. Weird. Weird. She's not going to be saved by a prince, and she's not going to be dreaming about true love."

Christopher [00:02:20]:

So, Heather, most likely everyone hearing this was raised on fairy tale stories like Cinderella, Snow White, and Seven Dwarves. How influential were the blatantly obvious gender roles they portrayed? The hero saves the damsel, and they live happily ever after. How influential do you believe that was in your life?

Heather [00:02:43]:

Growing up, the Disney princesses were just completely captivating and sold a story that made you feel desirable, wanted, and attractive. For me, even though the end of the story was all about her love life or the love story, I found other elements of each one of the princess stories that I was much more interested and intrigued by. Like Ariel living her life as the sultan's daughter and what responsibility she might have under the water before being captivated by the prince. Belle loved to read, and loved to sing, and loved to be part of, like the inventions of her father. Pocahontas, of course, defied the men in her life and did her own path, chose her own way. So while I can appreciate that a lot of the feminist movement has called out just how influential the love story was in each one of those women's lives, I don't think that that's the only thing that was sold, that there was a lot, actually, in my opinion, of agency and her own rebellion that was interwoven into each one of those stories. But let's go to Snow White because that one's a little different.

Heather [00:04:18]:

And, you know, even Sleeping Beauty, you know, a lover's kiss was not only important, but it brought them back to life. That's a pretty clear view that the love you have in your life should be the most meaningful contribution to your staying alive, if we want to call it that.

Heather [00:04:42]:

But, you know, as per usual on the Virgin, Beauty, Bitch, we're always searching for the deeper meaning behind these stories that we've been told. What I find interesting about Rachel Zegler and her thoughts that you just shared is just how strong the backlash was for her daring to be a woman who talks back or talks out about that archaic narrative. So, it's not a surprise to me that there's this meltdown that's happened about a young woman expressing her agency in this tale, this old story.

Christopher [00:05:22]:

So I don't know if it's that she spoke out or if it's how she spoke out. It was the disrespect for something that has been treasured for so long, for so many centuries in our lives as a society as the things we value. We value love, we value romance, we value this chivalry thing back and forth. It's not that she spoke out. It's the disrespect she showed for things that people value. I think that's where she got herself caught up.

Heather [00:05:59]:

Yeah, I can understand that people gravitate to these ideals of almost preserving these stories as novelties, as precious, as pieces of, as you've said, traditional feminine values or feminine characteristics. But I think that the way that she's spoken out to it is very realistic to how many younger women in the Gen Z, in the Zoomer generations, and millennials. That really denounces what was portrayed in that movie. I mean, really, to me, it says, like, a lot of what's in Snow White, especially with it being, you know, 1937, very, very, you know, in a completely different era. An era where her main traits are the fairest of them all? Her Beauty, her innocence, her obedience. She's banished, poisoned, and only brought back to life because some dude thinks she's pretty enough while she's unconscious.

Heather [00:07:09]:

And then, you know, similar for Cinderella. She suffers in silence and sings while scrubbing the floor. Her salvation comes not from fighting back but from being chosen by a dude. And the prince doesn't even remember what she looks like. She's only remembered because of her fitting into a certain shoe. So, I mean, these stories, although there are messages other than these main ones that seem to be what Rachel's bringing to the forefront, still reinforce a passive femininity where the ideal woman is beautiful, virtuous, and quiet. She waits, and she endures eventually to be rewarded by male attention, which is framed as the ultimate goal. So, to me, that's the part that gives me more credit to what Rachel is saying, that these aren't just stories; they're templates. And some of it teaches girls, you know, that your value lies in how you look, how little trouble you cause, or how desirable you are to men.

Christopher [00:08:20]:

And fair enough for that. It's interesting, though, that the banishing, the poisoning, and the disrespect all came from other women. It didn't come from, it didn't come from men. The men were there at the end to say, let me take you away from this. But all of that suffering was caused by other women.

Heather [00:08:40]:

Isn't that the truth?

Christopher [00:08:45]:

So, the men get inevitably chastised for the role they play, while what has been done to these young women by other women is completely overlooked. How fair is that?

Heather [00:09:02]:

You raise an excellent point, Christopher. And I mean all that to also say, look at the women that cause this torment to other women and how they're portrayed, right? The witch with the crooked nose or someone, quote, unquote, not conventionally beautiful or fair-skinned or what have you. And how much does that also paint a picture of what women who, you know, are again drawn in the way that the evil folks are, that they should be, you know, not only disregarded but, you know, to, to be the, the carriers of evil?

Christopher [00:09:45]:

I mean, is that unrealistic? Is that something that is fantasy? Or is that the way it sometimes works in life, that women are other women's worst enemies?

Heather [00:09:57]:

Yeah, I think that when you look throughout history of who are some of the most stringent upholders of traditional values or traditional characteristics in a woman I mean, ultimately, that comes from a woman's mother, maybe grandmother, her aunties, all trying to mold her into what will be a successful woman or a woman of esteemed character. And, you know, we see such a wide range of how that's carried out in different cultures. I mean, Christopher, you and I have had conversations that stem anywhere from bodily mutilation all the way to honor killings or to just how you look, behave, dress and how attractive you are to catch a mate. Really, like, how much of that is at the hands of women in your life that believe that they're doing you a favor to have you accepted within society, but, you know, at the loss of a woman's own agency and her own desires for herself.

Christopher [00:11:15]:

Well, it's like I said at the beginning; it started off as this mutual understanding of this is a role that I can play in your life to enhance your life. As far as the man is concerned, I can be the brave one. I can be the one who stands at the door with the shotgun, but now you owe me, so spend your time serving me. So we've twisted this beautiful relationship we started off with called romance and made it into something that's tit for tat; I've done for you, now you do for me, and you're below me. Unfortunately, that's what it's become. But should we throw away all of that tradition? Should we just burn it like school books that say things that we don't think belong in the world anymore?

Heather [00:12:06]:

Yeah. I mean, to me, I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water if we want to say that. And I think something that we work hard at on our show is to be able to pick and choose the characteristics that really express who you are. And I know that comes back to the three names that we have in our show that should you choose. You have the characteristics of the Virgin, who is curious and unclaimed, and the novelty of life or a decision still lies in front of you each day. Or the Beauty of owning our own radiance on our own terms. And then the Bitch, you know, being defiant, loud, self-assured, and that there are pieces within these fairy tale stories that again, to me, even if it isn't the main overarching narrative and Snow White is a little maybe outside of this thought process, but a lot of the other fairy tale princesses, they did have their own thing going on and had an identity onto themselves. So, you know, I don't want to throw out what I cherish from my childhood, which was those pieces of those stories and the other element being romance and love, like, what more beautiful elements of life are there than to find romance and love? So I don't think it's worth throwing out the baby with the bathwater while still questioning just how important relationships and intimate relationships have been for women historically and don't have the same powerful pinnings as they once did.

Christopher [00:13:52]:

So I think that Virgin Beauty Bitch, and you and I, I think that the pure values of tradition we agree on the roles can be juxtaposed in different ways, for sure. However, I think we still want some of those quality values, the romance. We still want that. We still want to play those roles to each other and cherish each other and be cherished for the roles we play. And I think what we try to do with this show or what we do with the show is take out the quality values from the words and from the role play. There are positive things within it that, unfortunately, get thrown out with the bathwater as we speak. And I mean, there are men who take advantage of that role, the chivalry role.

Christopher [00:14:55]:

There are men who do use that for their own purposes, not for the other person's. But again, how do we keep those values, the things that we cherish, and not destroy this relationship between men and women?

Heather [00:15:15]:

Yeah, I think that for me, how I kind of pull that question apart is to think about, and especially within Cinderella and in Snow White, a lot of what we saw is kind of almost an ingredients or a recipe for how or instruction manuals on how to be a good girl. You know, don't speak unless spoken to, don't compete with other women, especially not older ones that are going to poison you. Definitely don't make the first move, have perfect hair, perfect skin, a high tolerance for abuse, and above all, don't make yourself the hero of your own story. But I think that where we can still find the appeal of romance is when we think about not just being women who are acted upon, but we take the initiative around what it means to be the active agent in our lives. And, of course, that is something that has come over time with women having more access to their own livelihoods, their own sense of self, and their emotional intelligence, separate from the relationships that we have. But I think that there's something to be said that when we kind of take the gleam or the shine off of these stories, we do see that a lot of the princesses are framed within noble suffering.

Heather [00:16:50]:

And the more pain you endure, the more that you're able to endure the pain, the more likely you are to be saved. So, you know, and maybe that's a little bit extreme, but even to say patience and humility as elements of what makes a woman worth saving is problematic. But that's not to say that they're powerless; it's just showing that they're rewarded for their powerlessness. So the way that I think about how to still maintain the baby in the bath water without throwing it out is that, you know, these newer depictions of these Disney characters or how Disney, I think is trying to shift some of these characters in the world where women have so much more self-agency, is, yeah, really showcasing her as her own, her own active agent and that her story and her ambition is the forefront of her life story. But that, like the love that she feels for another person, and hopefully she finds that in return, is also a beautiful piece of that story. But that's what it is. It's a piece of her story.

Heather [00:18:10]:

It is a piece of her prince's story rather than his whole story.

Christopher [00:18:15]:

Yeah, I think when you equate courtship with stalking, you might have gone a little too far, especially with the beloved tale that people cherish. That might be taking it a little beyond the pale. And I think that was the start, the beginning of the end for her, unraveling that entire project, and unfortunately, that's the way it goes. So in that light, should we be taking these treasured stories and trying to inject our modern sensibilities and understanding, you know, moving forward as women and men? Should we be taking these stories, these treasured pieces, like taking the Mona Lisa and putting a big happy face on her? She is what she is in the context of when it was painted and how it's been adored all this time. Or do we write, and do we just create our new Mona Lisa from scratch with the sensibilities and the things we value today? That, to me, is the point of where we go, and what is right, and what is maybe a little too much to expect the public to accept.

Heather [00:19:41]:

Yeah, it's an excellent question. And you know, I know that Disney's new rendition of The Little Mermaid was met with a lot of backlash because they made a black woman our Ariel. And I am so elated that Disney went forward with that because it's a game changer for little black girls to see themselves reflected in these cherished stories when, in so many of these classics, they weren't represented. So I know it's a bit of a different question around: Do we take these treasured, beloved stories and meet the times that we're in today? But I think it's an example of taking something that was treasured in a certain way and pushing the boundaries to reimagine what it means in today's society.

Heather [00:20:43]:

So, to me, like those treasures, if we want to say that princess stories that were made in their original versions, those can forever exist. Right. They'll forever be there. But I'm all for seeing Disney make new renditions that meet the times. And the people who want to watch the cherished older versions can have at it. And the people who are looking for their daughters or their sons or their children of any gender to see a different type of Snow White or a different type of Ariel, I'm here for it. I love it. I love to see not only a new version but a version that pushes us to reconcile why so many people were angry with the black Ariel.

Heather [00:21:36]:

Like, we have to meet that conversation in a way that if they had not decided to do that, you know, people wouldn't have to wrestle with it.

Christopher [00:21:47]:

I agree with that. Maybe the approach is the problem. If you want to raise public consciousness and broaden people's minds on the way they look and think about things, maybe it needs to not just be put on screen and expect people to accept it, but maybe there needs to be, like an education campaign around why we're doing this, what our thoughts are, and the questions we want to raise by doing it this way. Maybe there needs to be some sort of introduction to the change, not just make the change and expect people to just be on board with it. Because people treasure the things they value and the things that they grew up with, the characters that they know and have become enamoured with, and to just take them and change them for your own reasons because you're Disney. Apparently, that's not working out so well.

Heather [00:22:53]:

Yes. Yeah. Isn't that true? That would be very cool to see Disney try to take that angle so that it isn't such a flop when they try to make these drastic changes, like to give it more of a PR think-through, of almost preparing people for what they're about to see and why Disney is going in that direction. So I think that would be very cool to see, to almost, you know, open the conversation before these new looks at what princesses can become such a flop.

Christopher [00:23:29]:

Disney, you're welcome.

Heather [00:23:32]:

Right, we'll take the TM on that. The trademark.

Christopher [00:23:40]:

Oh, my goodness. It has been an interesting journey watching Rachel, and I do feel for her. She's a young woman who is obviously very forward-thinking about how women should be seen and portrayed in the world around us. And unfortunately, the gravity and weight of the machine that she's in the pilot seat of was too much, too fast, too soon for the time. And like I said, it's like seeing a train wreck in slow motion for two years. Obviously, the results came in, the vote has been cast, and it hasn't been all that positive. However, it makes for a good conversation in understanding where and how we see this relationship between women and men, masculine and feminine, and how, hopefully, we can take the values that are strengthening to both of us and work on those moving forward.

Heather [00:24:56]:

Well said. And, you know, I just want to say to our listeners who may have a complicated history or feeling with these Disney princess movies that for anyone that what has stuck with you from these movies or maybe are under the surface, that being small and sweet is the way to win love. Just want to say that your worth was never around your silence or also your waistline because they've portrayed them in a very certain type of physical aesthetic as well, but that, you know to our listeners that you are the heroine of your own story, and it wasn't really the magic or the fairy dust. It was her voice and your voice in your own life. So, I mean, I'd love to hear from our listeners if there's a certain fairy tale that shaped your early view of womanhood or how you're rewriting that today; if it still compels you in certain ways, we'd love to hear that. So please hit us up and let us know if that's something you're reconciling with.

Christopher [00:26:04]:

Or, if it pisses you off, let us know.

Heather [00:26:08]:

Love that too. Like Rachel, tell us the goods.

Christopher [00:26:15]:

Absolutely, absolutely. This is, you know, a direction we've been going in for the last little while, is talking about betrayal, talking about identity, and these elements. So this definitely falls into that category as we move forward in our exploration of the Bitch and its meaning overall. That will likely surprise you when we do roll out, and that's coming soon.

Heather [00:26:46]:

Yes, I'm super excited about that, and I enjoyed this conversation today.

Christopher [00:26:51]:

Christopher, as always, as always, and you have been listening to the Virgin, the.

Heather [00:26:58]:

Beauty and the Bitch.

Christopher [00:27:00]:

Find us. Like us. Share us. We invite you back, soon.

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Until next time, thanks for listening.