VBB 328 Narcissistic Red Flags!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

Are all narcissistic men the same? Are there methods similar, and most importantly, are there ways for women to identify and avoid becoming their victims? These questions happen to be the expertise of a psychologist and writer who also happens to be an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. We welcome Dr. Karry Kerr McAvoy to Virgin Beauty. Bitch. Welcome.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:00:50]:

Thank you so much.

Christopher [00:00:51]:

Pleasure to have you. Now, Kerry, you are a leading expert on narcissism and toxic relationships, but your doctoral degree in psychology didn't prepare you for what you now understand as narcissism. In fact, that education came from falling in love with a narcissist.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:01:09]:

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, that's true. Yes.

Christopher [00:01:12]:

Tell us that story. How did that come about in your life?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:01:16]:

Yeah, so. And I recognized he was a narcissist, too. It wasn't that I missed the diagnosis; it was the fact that there wasn't any emphasis on the consequences of being in a relationship with someone who has that diagnosis. So, a little bit about me. I have a PhD in clinical psychology, worked for 20 years, 20 plus years in a general practice, saw all sorts of types of problems. Definitely saw narcissism in my practice, and I'm sure I actually saw narcissistically abusive relationships, but I just didn't know what I was seeing at the time because that's not something they talk about in graduate school. They don't talk about the consequences of living and residing and being around a toxic individual. I had a good marriage. I was married 30-plus years to an amazing guy who then got cancer and in a very quick period of time succumbed to it.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:02:02]:

It was a terminal illness from the get-go; we knew that he wasn't going to make it because it was a very, extremely rare form of cancer. And then my whole life turned upside down. I stopped practicing because I was just not in the shape to see patients and really wanted the relationship that I had back because multiple things happened at the same time. I also became an empty nester at the same time. He passed away and was preparing to move into retirement, and all of that just sort of disappeared on me. So I approached dating like a job and met. It does feel like a job.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:02:34]:

I met the person a year later, and then a year after that, we were married. But what I didn't know, I mean, even though I recognize this person is pretty Narcissistic at the time. I didn't go out of my way to diagnose him because you don't do that with loved ones. I recognize a lot of the toxic traits, but I thought that they were survivable. I thought that it just meant that he was larger than life and that he had to be the biggest person in the room. And honestly, I don't really care about that. That doesn't matter to me. So I thought that as long as I was okay with those pieces, this was going to be survivable.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:03:06]:

But, boy, was I in for a terrible ride of my life.

Christopher [00:03:11]:

What was the breaking point? Where you went, oh, my Lord, what have I done? How did I get here?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:03:17]:

Yeah, yeah, it was really clear. The breaking point was, like, hyper-dramatic. So we took a delayed honeymoon. We were moving to Mexico. He's a resident but has lived his whole life in the United States and has a green card. I thought it would be really cool to go to Mexico and run a vacation rental business. Now, why would I do that after being a psychologist? I'd been a landlord for years and enjoyed it, and I always really liked the hospitality part and thought that that blended all the best. I wasn't practicing, so I thought that blended all the best parts of my skill sets. My experience in having tenants and managing property, and then my skill sets with people.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:03:56]:

And then the fact that if we lived in another country, it would extend the resources further. Plus, it just sounded really exotic, like an incredible thing to do. And he was Mexican, so he had the language. So I thought, yeah, I have a minor in Spanish, but I hadn't practiced it. So I thought I would lean into his fluency and that we would be able to do this. So, yeah, we were in that process. I forgot the original question. Sorry I got so caught up.

Christopher [00:04:20]:

The breaking point for you.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:04:22]:

Oh, the breaking point. So, yes. So we were about ready to get ready to go. We took a delayed honeymoon because we're moving, packing, and selling things. So we took a honeymoon a month after we got married with family. On the honeymoon, I caught him the first night opting out of being physically intimate for watching pornography and texting another woman. That was my first brutal awareness that this person was into things that I'd already asked about, and he denied. Plus, that was a very harmful, hurtful betrayal.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:05:00]:

But on the last night, when I thought we patched things up and things were a little bit better, on the last night, I woke up to a message from a woman saying, I guess the Joke's not just on me, but it's on you too. I've been dating him for the past three months, and then she proceeded to describe things that told me she'd been in his car, told me times and dates that I knew lined up with times and dates where we had been. You know, she lived out of the city, so I knew we'd been in her area, that it was, I could tell this was a real story. It was very plausible. And then his reaction told me it was true too, so.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:05:33]:

And that moment when it happened, it's hard to describe. My world shattered. I actually lost consciousness. I felt like. There's a scene I saw years ago from one of my favorite sci-fi shows where there are two worlds that are colliding, and one world breaks, and the other world does not. And that's what I felt like. I felt like there were two realities: there's a version I thought we were living, and then there's this version I'm just learning about.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:05:59]:

And I realized her version was the truth. My version had been a lie. At that moment, facing the fact that I had been living a constructed lie, I realized I knew nothing. I didn't even know if I knew this person. Everything then became a question. Who is he? Do I know him? What's he actually doing? Does he even work where I think he works? What's true about his story? What's true about our relationship? It was just devastating.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:06:28]:

Devastating.

Heather [00:06:28]:

Well, thank you for your vulnerability and in sharing that piece, because it's wild how many people have been in a circumstance like what you're describing where it's possible, especially with a narcissist, to get wrapped up in the charm and the charisma of what they present to be the reality of who they are and the story that they tell you. And so when you do face that moment, as. As you so well described, of the collisions of two worlds meeting where you're not sure anymore what really is reality, since they've painted such a vivid picture of someone that they're not, it lends to something that we explore on this show, which is the power of the bitch inside us. Not as an insult, but as a woman who knows herself and sets the boundaries or says, you know, no more, but, you know, I'm interested with that moment. What was that like, the first steps for you after facing these worlds that had collided, and from what you've said, kind of I can appreciate, you know, losing consciousness because it's so drastic what you're feeling. But that, that process of reconnecting with your inner power to, to kind of face the new reality or the reality that that is now, you know, been uncovered.

Heather [00:07:53]:

What was that like for you?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:07:55]:

Yeah, it actually was a two-plus-year process. I would not say it happened at that moment. The first thing that happened, in that moment, was the reality that I had two options in front of me. One was I could pretend I didn't learn this, and things would go back to normal. That I, because we were mid-move, I mean you have to remember that mid-move, like literally houses sold, car has been sold. So my thought is, can I move to the new country without him? I don't know. I can't do that.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:08:28]:

Do I dare? How do I stop it when everything is like mid-purchase down there, like literally financially mid-purchase? So it was like I was in this leap that I couldn't get out of, and I had to do something. So I knew that. So, I was faced with some really hard truths. And I want to stop and say for a moment this is a common problem. Narcissistic and other toxic people know that large transitions tend to trap people, and they like to utilize them as ways to keep people in these relationships. So, I recognize that I was in some ways stuck in a, in a true financial way and that I needed t make some massive decisions that were going to have huge consequences for me. So my thought was, okay, I could pretend all this goes away, finish this move, then decide what I'm going to do when I get there, or can I live with myself doing that? And what does that mean? Do I go ahead and confront this and then see what we can do to remedy it while we finish the move? That was my choice at the moment.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:09:29]:

But there is a part of me, you know, you talk about finding the bitch part. I had been so kind of trained and groomed through my life to be, you know, your words, Virgin, Beauty, and Bitch have been really hard words to deal with as a woman. I mean, all of them are massive stereotypes that have lots of ramifications. All of them I have very huge feelings about. And I, that bitch part was something I was terrified of. And I still don't like that side of her or find I know her very well. So I was pretty compliant as much as I could.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:10:04]:

And it wasn't until I got closer to the end of the relationship that I found the strength. But it took two years, and it took another massive crisis for me to get in touch and find more strength because I made this dangerous assumption, and I think a lot of women get taught this. Unfortunately, to me, this is very, very frightening. We should not be giving this message to our daughters. And that is, the me is served by the we. It's served by the relationship that I will be good if the relationship is good. No, no, no, no.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:10:34]:

It doesn't work that way. You're in trouble when you set yourself up like that. But I didn't know. I mean, it took two more years for me to discover I didn't have a self outside of us, which is why I was moving so rapidly into the next relationship. Because without a relationship, who am I? I couldn't really answer those questions very well. So it was a massive process. So the immediate reaction was just, don't lie to myself. By the way, I did not. I confronted him right away.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:11:00]:

Don't lie to myself. Don't pretend nothing happened. Something happened, but I couldn't do the rest, which was to stop and say, okay, let's, like, assess what I'm really gonna do. Let's invite people in and decide what's the next step. I couldn't do that. I went ahead and tried to make it work with this person.

Christopher [00:11:16]:

Is that pride or fear of what people might think of you?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:11:21]:

I think it was both. I mean, definitely, because here, one of the things, as a widow. Widow is another nasty word. I don't think we sit and talk much about what it feels like to own the identity of a widow. For one, people are terrified of you because you now represent the very thing that they're afraid of, which is the collapse and the death of a partner, a loss of a relationship, and a loss of your life with that relationship. So you're attached to death. So it means you sort of represent.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:11:47]:

Think about it, we dress her in black, and we even have, like, the black widow, and we talk about all these things that sort of, like, associate death with that identity. The other thing about it is that there's a saying out there that widows come into money often and that they are stupid and do really ridiculous things and make lots of errors. So, I had this trope that I was trying not to live out. I didn't want to have come back and say, yep, I was right. I invested and believed in somebody that I shouldn't, and it's cost me money, and I feel really stupid about that. So, yes, there is pride, but there was also a tremendous amount of fear. It's another part of my story, and I didn't know it until this is all over with.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:12:22]:

But I'm autistic. And that's also been a very interesting identity to grapple with. And what it's meant for me is being the outsider for most of my life, knowing there's something different about me, the way I relate to people. I have experienced a tremendous part of my life very alone. My marriage to my first husband was one of the big times in my life. I felt like it had come home, and I was hoping to find a home again in this new relationship. So to let go of that meant I had to embrace the isolation and the loneliness again. And that's just. I'll tell you, for the longest time, that the terror around that was so huge that it just kept me from being able to take action in my best interest.

Heather [00:13:04]:

So many of things of what you've said here, I think is what, again, I love these conversations because I personally and I know so many other women have felt so isolated in how we feel in these relationships and we feel so alone that, you know, that it could be just us and it's the way I've been groomed in society and, you know, almost like the questions of what's wrong with me. So these conversations, I think, really help to open up that this is a commonality and that there are systems in place that lend to us feeling this way. So for us on this show, you know, self-trust is a huge theme because when you've been in a toxic relationship, even your instincts feel suspect. And society doesn't always give women the tools to recognize coercion, especially when it's dressed up as love. So I noticed on your website that you talk about love bombing and emotional manipulation. I'm wondering if you could also share with us some early red flags that women should listen to, especially when at times we silence or push down those gut instincts.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:14:14]:

Yeah, often, a lot of us are so accommodating that one of the things that toxic people are not afraid to do is put you in a bind that makes you feel mean, that you're forced into it. They call you out on something, force you into a decision or a truth that you're not really ready to say that civility or hospitality dictates. We don't do that to each other. We're more indirect, but. But they are not. They're direct. They'll say, so does that mean that you're letting me go because I'm a problem here? And you're like, yeah, because you're the problem here. You know, like literally, like challenge you with something that's terribly uncomfortable.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:14:48]:

And you have to, like, stare at them and either lie and deceive yourself and maybe even betray yourself and decept, definitely deceive them, or you have to, like, own that, find that strength, and then stand in the truth of that and know that they're right. And then that makes you a bitch for doing that. Yes, I guess in that moment, I'm a bitch for selling you the truth. So that's very uncomfortable. So here are some of the things that I missed in that first date. One was that he tested me, and I didn't recognize it as a test.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:15:17]:

He framed it as he was being kind and chivalrous. It really actually wasn't. It was a test. And that is. We went to the beach, and he took, he loaded himself up with all the stuff that, I mean, an umbrella, several coolers, a blanket, just tons of it was like, hunched over with all this stuff.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:15:33]:

And I said, here, let me take a few items. He goes, no, no, it's about time someone else takes care of you. That moment was, that's stupid. I mean, you don't need to do that. I could have helped out. I was prepared to help out. You didn't maybe have to make me carry half, but you could have let me carry something. So, at that moment, I showed that I would be compliant.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:15:54]:

So watch out for the test. And then the other thing that happened is he typecasted me. That's what comes out of Gavin de Becker's book called The Gift of Fear. He says, you don't want to be one of those women who are, who is. He had a word, and it wasn't an accurate word. English was the second language. So sometimes he'd say things that were wrong.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:16:12]:

But I knew what he meant. He, like, you don't want to be one of those, like, independent women or, oh, stubborn women. That's the word. He said, you don't want to be one of those stubborn women, do you? And he was meaning, like, I wasn't accept help. Typecasting sort of paints this image that you don't want to own. And so you go out of your way to prove that it's not true. And that then becomes a form of manipulation by me then giving in and like, no, no, I don't want to be that. And then becoming compliant.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:16:41]:

Then I was controllable in that moment. So watch out for the typecasting. It happens a lot. Negging is a form of typecasting. You know, they'll do something that kind of slightly insults. And then you have to go out of your way to prove that that's not true about you. But it's a great way to get us to resist our natural instincts. I think the other thing was it just was the future faking happened right away, you know, wouldn't have you thought about me moving here, like on the first.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:17:06]:

It's a first date, dude. I've not met you before. I think that's a discussion six months from now. Not a discussion. We have the first date, but watch for the rapidness of the relationship. If it's feeling too good, be true. And if they're talking about things that are too fast, then there's a signal that this person's rushing intimacy, rushing trust.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:17:27]:

And we often talk about love bombing. Love bombing is actually fascinating because there are three parts to it. What they do is they align with you about some past thing that's happened in your life and say they've been there too, or it happened to them. Probably isn't true. But an example I give is that you went to the University of Chicago and like, oh, I've been there. And isn't that green area so amazing? And you think, oh, yeah, they must have been there. They walked across that. And then you create this alignment of a similarity so you feel like you have a shared past, which makes them feel like you have shared memories when you actually don't.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:18:00]:

And then they'll do something about this moment. Like, I've never met anybody like you who gets me like this. Or I've never met anybody who I have so much in common with. Or I've never felt like this before. So they'll do something that makes this moment feel extra special, like you've created a special present moment. And then they'll create a future with you that actually will never happen. Which is. Wouldn't it be wonderful to go watch the stars at this park? Can you imagine lying on a blanket and doing that? And then now you're like thinking in the future with them.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:18:27]:

So they've created this whole world of time as if you've always known them. These past, present,and future moments that actually, not really, don't exist. So they do a lot of strategies to create rapid trust. And I think if we could be a little more suspicious, maybe. I mean, here's the thing. People think this is. I get this all the time. We need to stop blindly trusting people.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:18:49]:

We need to make them earn trust. And trust is earned over time, over consistency, over watching them. This person is in lots of situations with lots of different people and challenges. It doesn't happen in a moment. But we tend to think that if we're slow to trust somebody, that we're suspicious. No, you're not paranoid. That's just being cautious. So we need to, like, give ourselves time to let relationships build.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:19:15]:

Don't let somebody rush us.

Christopher [00:19:17]:

Kerry, are we slaves to love? I mean, all the things you mentioned, there are romantic ideals almost. You know, the person painting a future for you, having a similarity with your past. These are all things we think of in romantic ways. Right, but are we a slave then to that ideology of what love is?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:19:40]:

You know, it is everybody. I don't think men are, but I think women are. And that's one of the big challenges has been for me as a woman who's now I'm in my 60s and facing my later years of life and my new identity as a woman with that mindset of if I do this alone and if I don't have the things in my life that most women have, that sort of defines purpose and meaning, what gives me purpose and meaning. And I think for a lot of women, we've painted the idea that it's a family and a relationship that's purpose and meaning. You know, think about it. We think grandmas, their grandmas, they have kids over, and they decorate Christmas cookies. They have retirement. They focus their life around the events with their partner. We don't really do a whole lot of future casting for women without these roles.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:20:33]:

So I'm not for sure it's so much as a slave is that we just really haven't helped women expand the sense that their identity could be a lot more things and found in a lot different kind of situations instead of just being in a relationship.

Christopher [00:20:45]:

This sounds to me like New Brain, Old Brain. The old brain is where, you know, these ideals, past ideals are. But women have advanced way past that in what they have actually accomplished and are accomplishing in their lives. But this old brain seems to overarch everything.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:21:05]:

Yeah, yeah. I think there's a, I think what I watch is I interact with Gen Alpha, Gen Z, you know, the millennials, not so much Gen X. I think Gen X was raised a lot similar to the way. I mean, I'm on the edge of the baby boomers. I don't feel like I'm a part of the baby boomers of what's called, I think there's called, like a Tom Jones generation. I'm in that, you know, I was born in the 60s, you know.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:21:28]:

So I don't feel like I really, I feel like my legs straddle both, both generations. But what I'm noticing is that I feel like we're teaching women new things. I feel like the women who are coming after me feel more permission and are braver than I was allowed to be or encouraged to be. So I love that. I think that's really very much in the right direction, which we see in the rates of women not getting into a relationship. I think that's great that we're slowing that down or considering whether or not to have children. I'm really glad that that's an option now. Not something that just feels like it's a mandate.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:21:59]:

But, yeah, definitely my generation as well. I think for Generation X and everybody before us that our, our safety and our, our sense of self was found in the context of family and in a romantic relationship.

Heather [00:22:11]:

I really. Yeah, what you just said there really hit home for me because I feel that for so many women, as, as you've both articulated, it was a very definitive structure for what purpose and meaning meant. And so I feel like that almost, it's like your authentic self kind of rises out of the ashes of what we were supposed to be or what could be fulfilling. And sometimes, those ashes are the thought of what love was supposed to be. So I'm just wondering, kind of. And I also got so much out of, you know, those red flags that you've noticed in, in, in your experience, particularly, you know, the intense flattery or love bombing moving too fast in relationships to secure trust in a way that's rushed controlling behavior, masters care and emotional volatility. But I just also want to give some. Some uplifting and elevating to what you did after, after all of what you went through, which, you know, you created the group program, Healing Strong, and of course you have your own podcast, Breaking Free From Narcissistic Abuse, which I find just, just inspiring.

Heather [00:23:28]:

And it's, it's an honor to, to talk with you because taking what you've gone through and being able to help other people is so part of the fabric of what Christopher and I stand for as well. So I'm wondering if you can chat with us a bit from the perspective of your podcast and the people that you've worked with in Healing Strong. What have the people that you've worked with done that has helped them reclaim their identity when they feel similarly to what you have been through, and so many of us have been through when your gut instincts don't even know reality, that reclaiming of identity? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:24:09]:

Yeah. One of the things that I've discovered that I find extremely disturbing is that I realized that I was in a similar position, which is that most of us don't know and cannot recognize abuse. We don't know what it is, and we can't recognize it. We have the big extremes. You know, somebody assaults us physically, sexually, or emotionally, okay, yes, we'll say, yes, that's violence, that's abusive, but we don't recognize the subtle forms of abuse and then realize that we're being diminished, invalidated, shut down, made into a very small person, that essentially the other person has become the person in, the only person in the relationship. So one of the things that I've seen by being able to have the podcast as well as do group coaching as well as the club membership, is to help people redefine what healthiness looks like, how to really find true safety for themselves in relationship, and to recognize that it's in anything that diminishes you, that real love and safety should expand us, not shrink us. And to me, that's been the most powerful message, is just to help us all as a society get better and have an opportunity to speak into that.

Christopher [00:25:16]:

One item that we talk about quite a lot and will be exploring quite a bit moving forward is this authentic identity. And who is that? How do I find that? How do I connect with that? How do I. How do I even identify that out of the ashes of who I have had to be in order to fit in?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:25:39]:

Yeah. And when you're in a narcissistic relationship, it gets even worse because your identity becomes the identity. You become the augmentation of the other person's identity. You actually, your voice gets smaller and smaller as their needs, and their demands, and impulses become larger and consume more space. They're essentially emptying the worst parts of themselves out into you and then asking you to manage and stabilize all their instability, which is. So that's why it's so hard to heal when you get out of these relationships, is because you have to undo that as well as rediscover yourself in a new way. And often, those of us who've been in these relationships do feel like our life and our identity was destroyed, that we do feel like we've been left with ashes, and that we have to rediscover who we are.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:26:27]:

But that's an opportunity. I see this as actually, what I would call an adult developmental crisis. Erik Erikson, years ago, identified that there's periods of crisis in our lives. And most of them, he put in childhood or teenage years, like realizing you're a person in adolescence and discovering that identity, or even realizing that you have autonomy when you're two years old and you can do things. I really believe that, unfortunately, and fortunately maybe, abusive relationships give us the opportunity to discover another aspect of ourselves, to rework these big questions. Who am I? What gives me purpose? What's the point of my life? Where do I want to head? How do I want to reconnect with people in a different, safer way? So I think it's actually an exciting time, but it's a challenge because people always ask, well, how do you start? How do you start to figure out who you are? And I think, well, I say, I always tell them, start out with the simple things. What do you like to eat? You know, what side of the bed do you actually want to sleep on? Do you like the clothes that you're wearing? What's your favorite color? I mean, start there and then just let yourself explore and grow and learn new things about yourself.

Heather [00:27:34]:

Oh, I appreciate those starting steps. That's. It's really helpful to have examples. We love to ask our guests if there's one of the names in our show that really speaks to you or if two or three of them are something that you have perception of or a changing conception of what it means to you.

Heather [00:27:56]:

We'd absolutely love to hear that.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:27:59]:

Now, I find your name of the podcast fascinating, and like I said, I have a conflictual relationship with all of them, so I want to add a new name. So that's what I'm going to do, is add another name maybe to your repertoire. Not to say change the name of your podcast, but Virgin to me suggests purity and innocence, and that's just really painful because we're not. We're human, complex, gray, and full of lots of sides of ourselves. So I don't really like the identity of Virgin. I struggle with beauty. I've never actually been a conventionally beautiful woman, and that has opened doors and shut doors for me.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:28:32]:

So at times, it's good not to be, because then people don't assume things about you. But other times, it also means you don't have the opportunities that the. That. The privilege that beauty brings to you. And then the bitch. I always found that side of myself extremely scary and uncomfortable, and I was not quite sure what to do with her strength. But the one that I've been really working on a lot for myself is Crone. So I've been really trying to step into the identity of what it means to be a wise woman, a woman who has come into herself, and has power and insight and maybe can give back to the younger generations and has a place in society.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:29:09]:

She plays a purpose and a role in society. So, I know that wasn't quite the question. I didn't quite do the assignment, but that was my reaction to that.

Christopher [00:29:19]:

No, that's perfect. We are definitely always open to different perspectives on the words that we put out there and anything, any children that those words may have with other people, we are definitely open to hearing that as well. For us, these words were just provocative pieces. Over the time that we have been doing this podcast, they have developed into a psychology philosophy of their own. It's fascinating what these words represent to women, both on the positive and on the negative, which is really, really fascinating.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:29:58]:

I had a real strong reaction to Virgin because one of the things, if I asked him what do you love about me? He would kind of like, he said English was not a second language. So he used a word. It's not a word we use a lot in English. He'd say, you're without malice. What he meant was, I realized you're gullible. So, to me, it is a dissociation of words. Virgin means you're dumb and gullible.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:30:20]:

And I just, I mean, you know, and I just. None of these words really. All of them, actually. Or stereotypes, which get us caught. And I'd love for us to be multi-dimensional, but yeah, they are hard. They're hard words to navigate in our society.

Christopher [00:30:35]:

Well, the thing is, we chose those words simply because they are seen on the surface as negatives. If you look underneath the surface, they're positives.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:30:45]:

Yeah.

Christopher [00:30:45]:

A virgin gives you an opportunity to reinvent yourself at any given moment and experience something new in every single moment of the day. Beauty is how I see myself. Not how the world sees me, how do I see myself? Yeah, right. And bitch, of course, is that you use the word strength when you said the word bitch. And that's how we see it, as a strength.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:31:06]:

Yeah.

Christopher [00:31:07]:

So there are immense positives to these words that we've made into negatives socially.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:31:13]:

That's powerful. That's. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. And we do need to hone them more, and I would love to see us get good of age. Seeing age as having is not becoming replaceable and invisible, but rather as becoming helpful, useful, giving back, wise, and informative.

Christopher [00:31:33]:

So absolutely, in some cultures, that is the case.

Heather [00:31:36]:

We need to proliferate that.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:31:39]:

Yeah, we do. We do.

Christopher [00:31:41]:

This has been a really satisfying conversation.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:31:44]:

Well, thank you.

Christopher [00:31:46]:

I see you; I see you as a phoenix.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:31:50]:

Yeah, I do identify with that a lot, actually. So I've used that imagery.

Christopher [00:31:55]:

Something that is definitely of value to others to learn how to reinvent and return back to life after the darkest times of their lives. So we thank you for sharing that energy with us. Appreciate it.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:32:09]:

Well, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate this conversation.

Heather [00:32:12]:

It's been honestly a pleasure. From your wisdom to your fire to your truth. And certainly, we definitely want to let our audience know about your memoir, Love You More. And also, can you share with our listeners where they can find out more about you and the work you do?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:32:34]:

Sure. I'm on most platforms. The only one I'm not on is, I'm not on is X, or Twitter. I'm not very active there. But you can find me everywhere @kerrymcavoyPhD. And then my website is kerrymcavoyphd.com, and yeah, I wrote a book. So, if those are curious to know what happened, it's not so much insight oriented. I'm not going to be a big analysis of my experience. But if you're looking for like, am I the only one that this has happened to? What does it look like to be in a narcissistic relationship? Why is it so hard to get out? Is there something wrong with me? Then you can take comfort by reading my story, knowing that, no, I'm right there with you. This is what it looks like to be struggling with the dynamics of a very toxic relationship. So it's called Love You, The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction and Double Cross.

Christopher [00:33:22]:

And you've written some other pieces as well?

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:33:25]:

Yeah, I have. I've written a few devotionals that I don't talk much about. And then I also have two workbook books. One's called First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist. It helps you kind of break through the confusion. The second one is the Six-Step Blueprint to Healing and Recovery. And again, that helps you after the fact.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:33:42]:

And it kind of ties in a lot with Healing Strong. So Healing Strong is a 12-week group coaching program for those who are looking to just recover emotionally and psychologically from these relationships and from their own confusion about surviving a relationship.

Heather [00:33:57]:

Wonderful.

Christopher [00:33:57]:

Fantastic. Carrie, thank you for all your work.

Kerry Kerr McAvoy [00:34:00]:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Christopher [00:34:03]:

And you have been listening to the.

Heather [00:34:05]:

Virgin, the Beauty, the and the Crone today?

Christopher [00:34:11]:

Absolutely. You want to Find us, Lke us, Share us, and then bring yourself up right on back here. To become a partner in the VBB community, we invite you to find us@virginbeauty.com, like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are Defiantly Different like you. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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