VBB 323: Wise Words For Women With Bad Taste In Men!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Podcast: inspiring women to overcome. Social stereotypes and share unique life experiences. Without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather. Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

Before we get into conversation, first, a question you can answer silently in your head if you like. Have you ever had a "What was I thinking" Relationship? You know, the one after a few, after a few weeks, some months, hopefully, hopefully not years into the relationship, you finally get what friends and family were on about. It's one of those "Don't Remind Me" relationships. But do you ever wonder what made a smart woman like you go down that rocky road in the first place? For answers, we say, welcome to licensed therapist and certified addiction counselor, Mary Crocker Cook. Welcome, Mary, to Virgin Beauty. Bitch.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:01:01]:

Well, thank you for having me. Love the intro. Love it, love it, love it.

Christopher [00:01:06]:

Thank you for doing this. Now, Mary, you. You have a PhD in your title. I'm always impressed. You have over 30 years of experience as a therapist. I take it that you are a smart, discerning woman who works with the human psyche on a daily basis. But in your own words, you are also a woman with historically bad taste in men. In fact, you wrote the book Bad Taste.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:01:33]:

I wrote it.

Christopher [00:01:34]:

Self Care and Financial Planning for Women with Bad Taste in Men. So, can we get a baseline of qualities? What, like bad taste in men? Do you have any personal examples of what women might be able to relate to, such as what you call bad taste in men?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:01:49]:

Well, I mean, you know, this really comes from the fact that I do work with really marvelous women over the years. And I think for a lot of us, we have a lot of strengths in many areas. And then we have some holes, right? Holes in our development. One of the things I talk about a lot in my book has to do with our early childhood experience of not necessarily connecting effectively and early interruptions in our attachment. And so we don't. The part of us that developed the ability to be seen and heard accurately was not there. We didn't have that experience. So, we grow up, and we wind up choosing partners who also cannot see and hear as accurately.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:02:42]:

And they come in a lot of different outfits. Sometimes they're married, sometimes they're addicted to alcohol or drugs, sometimes they're in jail, Sometimes they are neurodiverse to the point where they can't participate effectively. There's that. There's the kind that really would just prefer to use us financially. So there's a lot of different ways. There's not one particular. And the book is really not about the men. It's really more about us and why we keep finding ourselves in these positions, and also how to take care of yourself because just because you're in an undesirable relationship doesn't mean you're going to leave right now, if ever.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:03:32]:

And a lot of the self-help books that even I've written, I've written a lot of books, you know, talk about why we're here and why we need to leave. But the truth is a lot of us won't be leaving, or if we do, we go pick another one. And so what do you do? What do you do? If I have a lot of strengths in other areas, but in this one, I need to be able to manage myself and my kids because I find myself in a situation that is hard. It's hard for me. But I love him, or he's the father, or he's providing. You know what I'm saying? There are a lot of reasons we stay. So it's really my love for us and the fact that some of us stay, we just stay sometimes for a while in relationships that even though everyone around us says, I don't know what you're doing here, you need to leave, oh my God. Easier said than done.

Heather [00:04:26]:

It really, it really is. And you know, what I love about your blog and the book is that you've taken hilarity and heartbreak and kind of woven these things together in a way that is, I find, really approachable for what the experience is like for so many women. And you know, when you're talking about women not leaving a bad relationship or just going right into the next one, It's a really poignant point because the other thing that women are thinking and, and what, you know, research has shown is when she does decide to leave, if she does, it's one of the most dangerous times for her with, with the potential of retaliation from her partner. So there's a lot at stake, you know, whether it's emotionally, financially, or psychologically, and then there is also the possibility of what happens when you do decide to go. So what probed you to take, you know, like this real heartbreak and make it into this kind of a platform to bring some humor into the conversation?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:05:38]:

Well, because it's my nature to find the ridiculous in just about any situation possible. It is one of my survival skills, and it works for me. I've been teaching for a very long time, and I sometimes have to teach hard topics. One of the things that we know is people learn best when they're relaxed, particularly if it's funny. And in fact, when you think about comics that you're particularly fond of, you can remember phrases and things that they say not just because it's funny, but because it's true. Right. And so part of how I try to manage the balance between recognizing that this is hard is that there are points in time that are ridiculous. You know, the things we tell ourselves. Right.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:06:29]:

The rationalizations we use, I mean, some of them are very silly, actually, but we do it. We do it. Like when I went through my biker phase for a month, you know, anyway, these things are ridiculous, all right? And it's like, particularly in retrospect, you're like, oh, my God, what was I thinking? It's like your introduction. I know, I know, I know.

Christopher [00:06:52]:

So this has happened.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:06:53]:

Sometimes, you have to give it a try.

Christopher [00:06:54]:

This has happened to you, I assume, more than once. So being as you are a very smart woman. Why. Why did this happen to you more than once, do you believe?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:07:08]:

Oh, I know why. Because I've had like a bazillion years of therapy and 12 steps, I would say, like most of the women I'm talking about, I did not. I did not have really solid early attachments in terms of emotions. I was not seen and heard. Even though I was well cared for, I think there is definitely a part of me that's always struggled with finding a mutual relationship. And so I have a tendency. Because when you don't trust attachment, some people develop an anxious approach, meaning they're constantly trying to connect how we do and how we do and how we're doing. And some of us develop a more avoidant approach where we're always waiting for it to end.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:07:56]:

And so we're pretty quick to be able to say, at least inside of us. Okay, well, I guess, you know, I don't matter here either. It doesn't mean we leave, but we're able to just sort of, kind of, don't fully show up. Because why? Okay, if I'm a person that can pretty easily interpret, you're not available, it means I know how to be unavailable also. Okay. Because I don't chase. I'm the kind. I'm the avoidant kind. Right?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:08:25]:

So I'm not gonna chase you. I'm gonna go, okay, I guess that's what we're doing now. And then we just live parallel like this. Right? So, yeah. So that is not effective. I don't recommend it.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:08:41]:

But in terms of coping, yeah, it works well, but it means that I can spend, and people with my style of attachment could spend a lot of time in relationships, actually pretty lonely because it's, you're still not seen and heard. You're still not connected even though you're in a relationship. Right. And it's not even a high-conflict relationship.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:09:06]:

It's just that you're not fully in. You're not integrating your relationship emotionally or intimately. Right? So, yeah, I think the heart wants what it wants. I put that in the book. Right. The heart wants what it wants.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:09:22]:

And I think there's a part of people who did not get that early attachment that always wants it. So, we hope lies eternal. Right? So you have chemistry with somebody, or they're funny, or they're smart, or initially, they seem available and you're like, okay, well, all right, maybe, right? Maybe that's how I went through my, you know, phase. Maybe. But, you know, without, you know, I'm better now. I am much better now. But certainly, when I was younger, I couldn't see. I think a lot of women don't.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:10:00]:

We were so focused on the maybe that we didn't see what they were actually saying about themselves. Right? Because people give you so much information about who they are, but you're not listening. What I see is women; we don't listen to ourselves, right? If somebody says to you, gee, you know, I've never been good with relationships, and we think, oh, yeah, I'd be different. No, you won't be. Okay. Right? Or no one's ever felt this way about anybody my whole life.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:10:37]:

Really? Because I guess you have. You know what I'm saying? Listen, listen. People are. They absolutely, you know, they will tell you. But a lot of us didn't; we just didn't get the memo to learn how to listen. Also, our bodies are so smart. Your body will tell you.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:11:01]:

Your body has reactions to people just like yours, you know, in fact, chemically, we feel things before they, you know, our body feels it before our head knows it. Okay? And so, part of becoming better at this is paying attention to your physical cues, right? Like I was talking to a woman the other day, and she said her daughter. Every time her daughter goes out with this guy, when she comes home, she throws up. Hello, Hello. Your body's so smart, okay? Your body's saying, listen. Even though your head says, oh, but he's funny or he's cute or. Yeah, your body says, get out. And we override it.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:11:53]:

We override it. Right. Use our logic, you know, oh, I love his family. Oh, but he's, you know, so stable, and he has a nice job. Whatever our bodies know. Right. Sorry.

Heather [00:12:12]:

I was going to ask, you know, why do we continue to fall for red flags even when we know better? And I think what you've summarized there is really the key piece, which is how women have silenced themselves and are listening to their bodies, listening to that inner voice or what they have. Yeah, it's. It can send an important loud message. Sometimes, it's a very visceral response.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:12:44]:

Exactly. Exactly. The other thing that we do a lot of times is we stop breathing. So, one of the things about anxiety is that what you'll notice when you're around certain people because our nervous systems all resonate with each other. Okay. And there are certain people you're around, and you can find yourself, if you pay attention, literally holding your breath. It's like you don't breathe.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:13:10]:

You're not breathing. What's wrong? Right? Why, why don't you feel safe to breathe? It's almost like you're waiting for the next thing. What's the next shoe to drop? When is the next mood swing? When is the next, you know? So again, and I've had people sitting in my office, I'll say, you know, I'll have to remind them to breathe because I can see that they're not breathing. And when you breathe really shallow, you feel lightheaded, you feel like you're well because you're literally not getting enough air. Okay, so what is that? Right. That you cannot fully be in your body around a person. Right.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:13:48]:

So, pay attention and then find people in your world. Even if I, let's say, can't leave, I need other people with whom I can breathe. Okay. I need to sometimes breathe. So even if you're a high-maintenance dude, and it's kind of on the moody swing side, right? Or, well, you're a criminal; I put in the book how expensive. Criminals are expensive. We love them, but they're very expensive.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:14:14]:

I put in there, you know, I explain how bail works and all this kind of, you know how much it costs? Cost. When you love a man who goes to jail a lot, it's very important that your name is on the lease and not theirs because they're suddenly unemployed for a while. Okay? So, you know, these things, they're expensive, but you love them, all right? You know, you do hold your breath when you're with a criminal, a lot, because you're not quite sure. You're exciting, but a little unstable. So I need to be around other people who. When I am with them, my nervous system can rest. Right. Needs to calm down.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:14:57]:

Right. Because I can sort of regroup, so I can be okay moving forward to whatever's next.

Christopher [00:15:06]:

Is the affection for the bad boy a real thing?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:15:11]:

Oh, very. Yeah, it is. And part of it really is there's a couple of things. You know, one of the things about people who. There are two different things. There are people who do crime for other reasons. Meaning, I'm addicted to meth. I need to do crime to do meth, okay?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:15:28]:

And then there's the, I like to do crime, and I do meth to do more crime, okay? So it depends on who we're talking about, okay? Most of my career has been the kind that do crime in order to do meth, okay? So what you're talking about with that kind is the kind of guy who's basically a good guy, but he's addicted. And so what happens is your judgment goes offline, okay? And your impulse control is really bad. So you're a bad criminal. You're a bad criminal. You get arrested a lot, you know; I mean, you're not a cartel member. You're shitty at it. I've actually said to guys like this: this is not the career for you.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:16:18]:

You keep getting arrested. Clearly, this is not for you, all right? Even though in their head, they think they're, like, Breaking Bad, no, they're not. So in my mind, they're like, know. In our local thing is called Elmwood Prison. They're like Elmwood dudes, okay? They're not San Quentin dudes, okay? They're Elmwood dudes.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:16:39]:

And they, you know, they have this inflated sense of self, so they're adorable, okay? So I think of them as, like, naughty puppies, all right? But they're expensive, all right? But that's how I think of them, all right? And I'm like, oh, and the truth is, when they get clean and sober, they stop criming. I mean, they're always still a little iffy in some ways, but they're not, you know, they stop the criming, and the world gets a little more stable, and then you've got the career ones. The career criminals are not going to stop criming.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:17:08]:

They're a little harder because they really don't connect very well. And so with them, what you're doing with them is you're primarily going to take care of them. It's not going to go in the other direction. Okay. And so then you've got a dynamic that's on the more codependent side where I'm taking care of you. Right. It's because there's no way. If you're a professional criminal, that is your job, by the way. And so you're not focused on how it affects other people.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:17:42]:

I mean, you're not. Right. And it's baked in that you're going to disappear for long periods of time. Right. And so it's a different kind of animal. You know, I've had women that actually married men doing long-term prison, you know, 25 years of life, whatever, that's a hard life. I do not recommend it. And I even say in the book, don't have a child with them because I had that too, where they have a baby with somebody who's doing life and then you're a single parent.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:18:13]:

So, I think our ability to make ourselves pretend we're a family, we have a lot of skills, but the truth is that's a hard way to do it. So if you're going to pick a criminal, I'd go with the Elmwood kind. I would not recommend the San Quentin kind just in general because, with the Elmwood kind, they might stop criming. I mean, they might get sober. Okay. And you might be able to do this thing. And the other kind just aren't gonna, they're, they like crime. It is their thing. That's what they do.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:18:46]:

And for the most part, they can change if they want to, but it's hard. It gets harder and harder for them with every stint. Right. Some of them have been going to jail since baby jail, which is, you know, like the ranches and juvenile hall. And the truth is, by the time I'm doing serious time, I probably have a lot of friends in there. I mean, it's my social, it's my community.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:19:14]:

So it's like anything. Like, even with addiction, if you stop drinking and using, you have to leave your community sometimes. And it's painful. If I'm a professional criminal, that's my community. So yeah, that becomes your community.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:19:31]:

So you need to think about that.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:19:34]:

So there's a lot to consider if you want to choose one of them. But sometimes, again, the heart wants what it wants. There you go.

Heather [00:19:41]:

I definitely hear you there. Another thing that kind of came to mind while you were speaking is that it feels like when women either stay in a relationship because of, you know, bad taste in men and then continue to kind of find the bad boy or somebody who isn't treating them right, there's still a lingering pressure. It's not, of course, what it used to be, but I still feel that when I talk to women, there's a self-worth that's only measured by how someone else can commit to you or an effect, like an effect on their self-worth if there's somebody else's inability to commit.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:20:21]:

You're right.

Heather [00:20:21]:

And it feels like, you know, we're sometimes waiting to be chosen and to continue to get to be chosen by someone.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:20:31]:

Exactly right.

Heather [00:20:31]:

And that we place so much emphasis on our self-worth because of it. And you know, I don't want it to sound cliche, but it feels like, you know, some of the transition in modern womanhood is really what. What does it mean to choose myself so that I'm not looking for someone else to choose me to feel valuable?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:20:54]:

You're exactly right. I think, and particularly if you didn't get this, your early attachment, your conclusion about why you were not seen and heard is there must be something wrong with me because children don't think it's the parents. They think it's them. So if I was smart enough, tall enough, thin enough, good enough student, whatever, they would hear, hear me and see me and treat me like I matter. Right. And so. Yeah, you're exactly. You're right on, Heather.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:21:24]:

So the idea would be. Yeah, if somebody chooses me, you know, I'm always, that's part of the hope, the hope of a relationship that somebody will finally choose me. Like they'll actually. I'll be good enough.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:21:41]:

Right? They'll stay because they want to stay because I'm worth staying with. And you're right, there is a little girl part of us that is still hoping, but again, the setup though, is I keep choosing the least likely people that would choose me. Right.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:22:02]:

So, we walk into a room of 99 available lovely men. I know a lot of them. It's 99 men, and I promise you, my radar will find the biggest jackass in a room.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:22:14]:

I absolutely will. Now, what my recovery has taught me is that I don't go there anymore. Like I tell my little girl part. Oh, no, honey, no, we're not going over there. Okay?

Heather [00:22:26]:

We're not going there today, honey. Not today. Not Today, honey.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:22:29]:

But I see him. Okay, so it's true, my hard wiring is that I do look for it. So we can. I don't know, for some of us will never not have that instinct, but we can work around it, and we can turn, you know, literally turn and say, okay, what are my other choices here? Because there are available people.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:22:52]:

It's. I'm not anti-men at all. I love men. But I think a lot of us don't recognize availability. We have a really hard time with it. It doesn't mean they're not there. They are.

Christopher [00:23:05]:

It seems like it doesn't give you the same benefits, even though they're negative. For some reason, the person you choose gives you something. What is it that they give you that is so invaluable to you in that moment, even though you may even know you're making a bad choice?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:23:25]:

Yes. Yeah. Because in that moment, you actually feel like you're seen and heard. For whatever reason, you feel that they, for whatever reason, you feel like you matter to them in that moment.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:23:44]:

But it's fleeting. It doesn't last. But it's kind of like, you know, like for me, if I use my example of the unavailable person, I go, oh, okay, we across a crowded room, I think, oh, I must have that one. So I go over and talk to that one, and that person, most likely in that moment, gives me their full attention. And I interpret that as availability. And it's not. It's got nothing to do with availability.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:24:14]:

But I'll read it like that, like, oh, look, yay. Right? And really, it's just because they happen to be available for that moment, but that's not how they normally roll. Then, what I'll do is spend the rest of the time trying to recapture that moment. Right. I mean, I hear this all the time. He's so different than, you know, when we were first dating. It's like, yes, I know. We all are, right? We're all in our early magical thinking.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:24:46]:

You know, Carl Jung always said he didn't even want to do therapy with people who are in love, he said, because they're delusional. He's right. And that's part of what's sweet about it. It is a delusional phase. And it's lovely when you're both in it. Okay? But if only one of you is, that's a problem. Okay? And that's what happens.

Heather [00:25:09]:

It's so true. And I'm just wondering if, like, for any of our listeners who may be feeling lost or stuck or just over it when it comes to dating, do you have any advice to share with them?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:25:23]:

I would say that the only way you will change the people you date is to change yourself. And, the only way I meet anybody available is I have to look at my own availability. The truth is, if I keep choosing unavailable people, I am the common denominator, and the only power I have is over me, my availability. And so you know, what I've noticed even in my own recovery over time is I definitely think of it as like buying cars. You always want to upgrade, right? And so relationships are very similar. And the goal here is to. It's like I had a therapist years ago who told me I'd have the relationship, I'd have the level of intimacy I could tolerate. And she was definitely dead on. I love therapists. She was dead on.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:26:11]:

So the thing I can manage here is what am I so afraid of? Because the truth is we're scared. We're scaredy cats, okay? And I need to be able to be firm in myself. I need to enjoy my own company. I need to be solid, right? I'm going to be okay no matter what, right? And not in a defensive posture, you know, not in a well, so fuck you feel. I mean, it's more like I'm gonna be okay, so I can tolerate the risk because that's what it is. Love is a risk every time. Because if you let people in, they can hurt you. They can also make your life fabulous, okay?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:26:54]:

We always forget there's a good outcome, right? So, the only way you're going to get a joyful outcome is if you give it a shot. But you need to do it from a position of you're not deluding yourself, you're in reality. Do you see what you see? In my book, I say that over and over again. Don't lie to yourself. Do not lie to yourself, even if it isn't pretty, okay? Your best shot is to say this is what's really available. This is how much I'm willing to do, right? And you match. You match. So, it's a work in progress.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:27:35]:

You also need friends who will not lie to you. I have on my website badtasteinmen.com, there's a free PDF for the friends of people with bad taste. Because it isn't just that it hurts you, everyone who loves you suffers, too. It's hard on us. It's hard on people who love people with bad taste because, you know, you can see it coming.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:28:00]:

You can see by the look on their face. I put that in my book. My friends know by the look on my face, like, oh, no, she's done it again. She's in the delusional phase. Shit. Okay. So they need support, too, because, you know, when you love somebody, you don't want to end the friendship or, you know, their family member. But it's like, I still need to be able to have some boundaries because I can only hear so many stories.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:28:25]:

Okay. I don't want to be hijacked all the way through your nuttiness. Right. So there is that. It's available, and it's for free.

Heather [00:28:35]:

Okay. That's good to know that there's an extra resource on there. That's fantastic. We love to ask our guests if there's one of our archetypes on this show that we explore that you have a story with or you have. You know, it means something to you. So of the Virgin, the Beauty and the Bitch. Do any of those strike a chord, and why?

Mary Crocker Cook [00:28:58]:

I would say one of the things I talk about in Al-Anon a lot is that I, you know, have my inner dragon. My father was a military officer, and I can go there, and particularly when I feel like I'm being pushed, I feel like I'm being pushed against the wall or I feel like I'm losing options or whatever my deal is. Right. I do have that part of me that's like. That I say, you know, my father has joined us.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:29:31]:

There's a tone of voice I get, and it's hard, and people be like, whoa. Okay. So, I've learned to try to manage that inner dragon. But it's there. And I have to watch for her because now she can also be helpful. Right. This is where some of my students will say, you know, well, Ms. Cook, don't play.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:29:49]:

All right, all right. They recognize I have a dragon. Okay. But I also love them ridiculously. And so there's the balancing where I need her. Sometimes, I need that part of me, and at the same time, I can't live there. That would be very bad. I'd be the screaming "get off my lawn" lady.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:30:07]:

Okay. I don't want that. Not good. But I don't want to get rid of her fully, either. Right. I need that part of me.

Heather [00:30:16]:

She serves a purpose.

Christopher [00:30:18]:

We are so happy to hear your perspective. Heather and I are working on a project, too. Someone once said to us that women need to learn to be better Bitches. And we're working on that as an aspect of bringing that side of the bitch into the light. As you just said, it's a part of you that you need, and that is necessary sometimes. So, yeah, in the future, we'll probably reach out to you again to help us talk about that topic alone.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:30:50]:

Oh, feel free. Because I, you know, there's an old book, dance, Dance of Anger, one of my very favorite old books. And. Yeah. What's the purpose of the anger? Sometimes, anger gives you energy and moves you forward. Right.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:31:07]:

But a lot of people are afraid of it. They're afraid of anger. Their own, other people's, and that's another reason we wind up stuck sometimes. So yeah, give me a shout.

Christopher [00:31:16]:

Absolutely. Give us the website again for your book and where people can find you.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:31:20]:

www.badtasteinmen.com.  If it's you, you'll remember. And again, there is the free PDF for your people who love you.

Christopher [00:31:33]:

Fabulous. Mary, this is. This is fantastic. Well, thank you because, I mean, thank you.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:31:38]:

This was fun.

Christopher [00:31:39]:

I don't know a woman or man who hasn't gone through this process of choosing badly and regretting it and not understanding why they keep doing the same thing over and over and over again.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:31:50]:

That's right.

Christopher [00:31:51]:

So this is very, very valuable. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this with us.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:31:55]:

You are very welcome.

Heather [00:31:57]:

Oh, it's been a joy. And how you bring hilarity and heartbreak and not to let it break us.

Heather [00:32:03]:

It's a joy to have you with us. So thank you.

Mary Crocker Cook [00:32:06]:

Thank you.

Christopher [00:32:07]:

And you have been listening to the.

Heather [00:32:10]:

The Virgin, the Beauty, and the Dragon Bitch.

Christopher [00:32:15]:

Find us. Like us. Share us. Bring your friends. Come on back. Let's learn some things together.  To become a partner in the VBB community, we invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com. Like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are defiantly different, like you.

Until next time, thanks for listening.