VBB 316: Jamie Louise Madigan - Is Bitch An Insult Or Inspiration?

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Virgin. Beauty.

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Bitch.

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Podcast.

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Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different.

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Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

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Let's talk, shall we?

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Who or what is your bitch?

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We all have them.

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Things in life that annoy, irritate or we just hate.

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Those things become our personal bitch.

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For me, winter is a bitch.

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For some, it's the most glorious season of all.

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I see the same thing when we use the word "bitch" and it's used to punish and demoralize women.

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It's a moment or confirmation that they are living life by their own standards, boundaries and values.

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So my question to women is, what side of the fence do you live on?

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What do you hear when someone calls you bitch with hate in their eyes?

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And how do women make the leap from hearing and insult to accepting a compliment?

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That's at the heart of our conversation today with poet Jamie Louise Madigan.

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Welcome back, Jamie, to Virgin Beauty Bitch.

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Hi, thanks for having me. Happy to be back.

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I love to have you.

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Now, Jamie, you and I had a heartfelt conversation a few weeks ago around our theme of the elimination of violence against women,

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which is something you had to overcome in your personal life.

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And your healing inspired a book, a book of poems, Lipstick Stains, and Coffee Cups,

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which I mentioned is literally boiling over with passion, pain and self-discovery.

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One critical part of that self-discovery was acknowledging a part of yourself

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that you once believed was best to avoid, the bitch.

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But before we meet her, who was Jamie before you made that self-discovery?

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Well, that's a very good question.

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I think I definitely delved into wanting to always be nice.

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Like, I feel like wanting to be nice and kind and accommodating and almost like a people pleaser.

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That was sort of what I was taught.

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I also was raised very religious.

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And so I feel like in the religious upbringing, you're kind of taught to sort of have good morals, treat people with respect.

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But I find that I didn't have necessarily the boundaries to put in place where I eventually kind of became more of a dormant.

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And that's when I would sort of almost like fantasize about being this like crazy bitch or like wishing that I could be more like empowered or wishing I could be more stronger.

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Or like, yeah, just like very different.

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Like it almost was like a personality.

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Like I saw my kindness as like a personality flaw.

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And I think when we spoke last time, I asked you to read one of your poems.

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And it was sort of the critical point of making that discovery and changing your attitude towards bitch.

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Do you have that poem there still?

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I do, yeah, if you'd like me to read it.

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Yeah, that'd be great because Heather did not hear that the first time around either.

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So let's go with it.

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Sure. Yeah, we can dissect it.

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So it is called, it's from my book, "Lipstick, Sains and Coffee Cups."

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And the title of the poem is called "Highest Room Tallest Tower."

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So it goes, "I've always been told you were such a sweetheart, you are a good person, you are so nice.

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I smile and say thank you, taking it as a compliment.

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As if they don't know, I have full capacity to reverse their words and morph into the monster every man dreams about.

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Instead, I lock her in the highest room in the tallest tower, starve her, drown her in kindness.

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I refuse to be the woman who torments those I care about because we've been taught being a nasty bitch has higher sex appeal."

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Still goosebumps.

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Would you hear there, Heather?

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Yeah, it gives me goosebumps too.

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I mean, what I hear is a piece of ourselves that isn't brought down from the tower or given her time in the sun, so to speak, in order to grow and thrive and understand who she is or what that element of yourself means for your overall personhood.

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And I think what you wrote there is so true for so many women that there's this piece of them that doesn't want to be a dormant but has been so programmed over time to be accommodating, to smooth the feathers, to make people work together, to be collaborative, that were consistently reminded whether through social cues or through relationship cues, that

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upholds our value is to be able to bring that to the table.

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But I think the trade-off for that is exactly as what you've said, you know, that you end up feeling like people can walk all over you.

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And I think that's true for so many women and not just women, but since that's the point of our conversation here today.

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So it kind of makes me think, what does that bitch in the tower, what does she want, what does it look like for her to actually get the attention she deserves for her own sake, and then maybe even for her sexual prowess, because there's a power to understanding your own sexuality and your wants and needs there.

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So I guess my question to you is what do you think that that piece of you locked in a tower at the time of that poem, what would she want instead?

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I think that's a really good question. I think I wanted to just be more vocal. I feel like a lot of the time, I guess I could use the metaphor of like Ariel was out her voice, you know, like Little Mermaid.

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I feel like I was always speaking and I was always sort of like saying the right things and like you were saying like going along kind of just to be accommodating, but I wasn't actually like telling the truth of how I felt.

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And so I feel like my like inner bitch would be like just say exactly how you feel and like not be worried about the consequence.

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Because I was catering to people's, not necessarily catering, but I was just sort of just living waiting for their judgment, I guess.

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Like I think I was very insecure at the time where I was so cautious about like what people thought of me, or if I said something that maybe would have been wrong, then it would have like set them off or would have made them think differently of me.

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And over the years, I've learned that like if you just say exactly how you feel, then the people who are meant to be in your life, like they will stay and the people to have a problem with it, then they'll say it, but then that could even open up like a bigger conversation.

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Like I feel like there's never, you can never really say the wrong thing to the right person is what I've learned. And that's just been a very good conversation piece.

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I think at that time, yeah, I was just really kind of missing like my voice and really missing like who I truly was internally, but I wasn't presenting that externally.

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The problem seems to me that no one conditions you or no one teaches you that that side of yourself is actually authentic.

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Yeah, you grew up believing that the good girl is authentic and there are rewards for that.

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What were the rewards for being the good girl and not being the other?

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I think it's being like being well liked, I guess, or like well tolerated.

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I think maybe I just, I think I liked the validation of knowing that like I was seen as a respectable nice pleasant person to be around.

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I think if you sort of tap into that like bitch persona that we're saying, I saw that as being, oh now I'm being difficult.

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Now I'm poking the bees nest, now I'm like creating bumps in the road and I think I was just so I always wanted to make things smooth sailing, even if it came at the cost of me shoving down like who I truly was, which is just such a backwards way to think.

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But over the years, I've really learned that like you should just say exactly how you feel and then deal with it.

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I found also, and I think that this is kind of the almost like the pitfall of the good girl is that when the good girl is always accommodating and making sure that everybody else's experience has the least amount of bumps is possible.

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What I've noticed is that then people get even more and more demanding of you. So it's like the smallest thing that you're putting forward to kind of stand for what you need in a circumstance or say what you need to say because they're not used to you asking for your own accommodations.

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It feels exponentially larger. And I think over time people then start to readjust to the fact that as you're saying you've gone through this big transition and the people who are meant to be in your life stay and recognize that you're putting forward your true authentic self matters to you, but then ultimately matters to them as somebody who cares about you.

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But I definitely noticed that the work is never done and you're never accommodating enough if you keep going down that path.

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Yeah, I noticed it.

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Yeah, notice it kind of creates like challenges for you later because once you make that first step of like the first time that you like call someone out on their behavior or how they're treating you or the first time that you finally said a boundary in place and you're like, hey, I'm actually not okay with this.

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Say like in an interpersonal relationship, I find that that trickles into every other aspect of your life where it's not it's not contained like I think I had this misconception in my head.

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I'm like, okay, well, I can just maybe be kind of more of a bitch just in this category and then the rest of my life I'll still be kind of nice and accommodating, but I'm like, it doesn't work that way.

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And it's kind of this nice feeling of like you're finally opening up and like kind of spreading your wings because I could be say something direct in a relationship and then it would be a couple of months later down the road, something would happen in work or something.

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I feel like I'd be taking advantage of in a work scenario and I'd be like, wait a minute, like I'm I know my value.

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I know that I should stand up for this like I was able to do this here. So now I should be able to do this in this scenario and it sort of just like follows the trajectory.

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So it's been very interesting to see how you're able to like open yourself up in all different categories.

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And like you said to your point, like, yeah, it's never over. Like I think life will always throw you curve balls and will always test you and always kind of like keep you in line and be like, hey, are you are you going to stick to what you have like rose to the occasion of or you're going to fall back into your own patterns and every single move that happens in life will kind of test you on that.

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An important word in relationships, every relationship is respect and in order for your women to earn and water for men to earn respect, you have to break the rules of being nice.

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But you have to first respect yourself in order to then break the rules outside of yourself.

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You have to let free something that has you've been told your whole life is not respected. You have to let that out and then exercise it in your life in general.

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That is a big, big discovery.

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Right. Like you said, you can't contain it because once you let it out, it doesn't just stay in the bedroom or it doesn't just stay in the kitchen or it doesn't just stay in your home.

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Yeah, it's very it's like kind of like flexing a muscle. You know, it's kind of like working out a muscle.

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Yeah, because each time like you're saying you're going to get a little more comfortable with it and it's like, okay, this actually either made me feel really seen for what I actually am or it felt true to myself, which helps build a sense of self worth that you respect.

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And I agree that it continues to keep going into other elements of life.

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Yeah, and I feel you're also like not like that flexing that muscle is sort of realizing that you're not you're no longer operating out of a place of fear.

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I feel like I was very like fear ridden and very like scared of the outcome or scared of what people thought.

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And I felt very very small in that way.

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And then once I started kind of learning that I could open up and be vocal and express myself and even through my through my poetry, like just say, like this is exactly how I felt.

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This is who I am. I'm authentically sharing every single detail.

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It sort of just like takes that veil off of like, I'm not operating from a place of fear. I'm operating from a place of courage.

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And I'm able to like change the direction of this. And so not being fear based is so refreshing that I'm not like I'm not like hanging on like I'm on a roller coaster ride like with clenched knuckles, you know, I can just relax.

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Excuse the metaphor.

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Do you think because I think that that is something that a lot of women feel is this and I believe some of that is from a survival standpoint in the consequence of standing your ground as being an aspect historically that either a connection to your life or your livelihood could have been at stake in expressing what you needed or how you really feel.

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But there's a psychological emotional societal context of it as well with real ramifications. So for you, like what kind of help push you through seeing that even if there are consequences and how people perceive you.

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What helped you to kind of dissipate that that mattered so much, you know, the consequence.

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I think you're just weighing the consequence against your own internal like compass, you know, like I think the word consequence, I guess, would be you seem to have like it always comes with like a negative connotation.

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And me myself, I think it's just becoming aware of how I can be my own worst enemy and I can like over over dramatize a situation or overthink or over analyze or make something actually worse than it is when the truth is like the consequence of me standing up for something would be potentially the loss of somebody else would mean that I may be losing someone.

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But that person like maybe they were meant to be lost anyways. So I think it's just grappling with the fact that like I can stand up and maybe I will lose someone or maybe I will create a feeling in somebody else that they're not comfortable with.

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But it's not my responsibility to make them comfortable like it's my responsibility to tell the truth. So.

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I think that's the biggest switch is what you just said right there right is the turning around of putting your values first. Yeah, as opposed to others.

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Yeah, that makes the that makes all the difference in the world.

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So this word now it does not mean the same as it used to in your life.

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Bitch. Yeah, it doesn't it used to be even in the book like I used to be very I wouldn't necessarily like I think it was more like a jealousy thing.

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I think there was this other woman who my boyfriend at the time was kind of pursuing and interested in and I think I painted her as this like terrible woman because obviously I was you know 18 and heartbroken and angsty.

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And I wasn't able to regulate my emotions effectively as I'm able to now.

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But yeah, it stemmed from a lot of jealousy. It stemmed from a lot of insecurity.

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And I was kind of angry at this woman, but it was almost like looking back at it now.

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It's almost like I kind of wanted to be her like I wanted I wanted to have that like stern like conviction and being able to like speak clearly and like stand for what I want and just be able to say exactly what I want.

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I want to say exactly how I felt and be strong and empowered.

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And so even though it came off as like hatred and anger, I think there was a lot of like yearning for like wanting to be that way as well.

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So it's kind of like a double double edge sword in a way.

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So do you feel now that you've taken the bitch out of the tower and where where she now?

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Where she now. That's great.

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What is what shenanigans is she up to now?

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Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say that she's like rampaging through the town, you know, with like fire on her tail, like trailblazing.

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I would say that I've become very more just like centered in who I am.

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I feel like yeah, I'm no longer I'm no longer hoping for people to accept me, I guess like I I've just become clear.

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I'm like, this is who I am.

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This is who I want.

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Like if you don't see value in that like that's your loss because I'm a delight.

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You know, and it's like you can be you can be strong and like empowered in your own way without being like aggressive.

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But even if you do if the way that you're expressing yourself does come off aggressively, then like that's okay too.

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Like as long as you're treating people with like a fundamental level of respect and like stating your case clearly, I don't really see why there should be any issues with saying like,

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Hey, I have a problem with this or like I should be treated this way or like you shouldn't talk to me like this.

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Like that's just basic like telling someone to have basic human decency being like I want you to be a decent person to me.

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And I think we should treat each other as equals with respect.

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Like I don't think I should ever feel guilty for that anymore.

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And before I used to tie my expressions and like asking for that with so much shame and so much guilt and so much fear.

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And now it's like no, I'm just a person who's talking to you as a person and saying like we're having like an adult conversation.

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And so it doesn't need to be this big dramatic thing.

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It's just like, hey, we're both just humans and we're trying to do our best to like find a common ground.

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I hope that makes sense.

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That's great. The word bitch historically has been presented as as you said, a woman rampaging through town with fire on her tail.

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Yeah, that's how that's how the word has been presented socially.

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However, it is something far more internal, far more subtle and something that you work on in yourself.

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It really has nothing to do with this raging person that we have attached bitch to.

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It's far more personal. It's far more getting to know who you are and then expressing yourself in a way.

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Like as you said, it's just basically human right.

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And I feel too like even tying into what Heather had said at the beginning of the conversation, like I find that I did tie that bitch persona as well to like the sexuality piece of thinking that because I was a nice accommodating girl, then like maybe I wasn't as desirable as like someone who was more bitchy or more like stern or strong or something like that.

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Like I think it made me feel insecure of like because I'm so nice now I'm not seen as attractive as somebody else would be and I would almost kind of like place that judgment of like, oh, if I was more this way, then I'd be more desired.

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But it's like, why would I why would I morph myself into something that I'm not just for like the physical affection of men because then they'd be attracted to something that's not real.

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You know, so that was a big struggle in my brain of trying to really find that balance of like standing up for myself while also not going too far the other way to try and like get attention or affection in areas from people that like aren't actually attracted to the right thing or the right values.

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Well, that that sounds to me like when you put in a sexual context, basically you need to be a porn star.

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Essentially, I mean like, yeah, I would say more like needing to be, yeah, like I've never felt the need to like overly sexualize myself.

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But then there's like that weird piece because in society, like you do know that like that's what like especially on the agenda, that's kind of what gets the most used and the most attention.

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So then you're like, okay, well, that means that I'm going to have to work a little bit harder and I'm going to have to focus on the fundamentals of who I am and really just drive that home instead of this over sexualized persona as well.

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Yeah.

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I think it's important to make the distinction between the bitch we're talking about, the self-discovery and self-expression part of ourselves as to this image of this raging female,

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going crazy sexually and socially and out of control.

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I think it's really important to make the distinction between these two things that we're talking about using the same word.

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And also too, like even it's not to say that like I love like women that go and they have like these like amazing like Budwar photo shoots and things like that.

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Like that is so to me, like I almost had to reframe that and be like, oh, like that is so empowering that they're able to do that as well.

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And so like to view that as like something that's empowered and that they're doing it for them, like they're not doing it.

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Like it's for their own confidence, their own self-esteem, for their own sexuality and feeling good in themselves.

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They're not doing it for the sake of needing like validation for anybody else as well too.

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So like I love that whole piece as well where I did have to reframe it and think like I'm not trying to be anything else other than who I am and I can march my own path.

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And this is kind of how I am and then watch other women march their own path to and everyone's able to just be who they are innately and not feel a judgment or not feel like they're searching for this external, external validation.

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I think that really hits the nail on the head of some of the hesitancy that women feel around standing their ground because I think a huge piece of that is the validation that we so desperately seek.

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So you know the work that you've done internally in order to just know that the only way to really feel that is from how you feel about yourself, it just frees you.

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It frees you from all of those pinnings of wanting that from from other people.

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Yeah. Yeah. It does feel very like liberating. It feels like there's like a weight that's kind of been like lifted off my shoulders where I no longer feel like I'm sort of muscled or I'm like in a cage sort of

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not being able to be who I truly am. So it's been very it's been very empowering.

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So who are some of your female heroes, heroines?

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Well, we were talking about this a little bit earlier, but definitely I would say Taylor Swift is like one and only.

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She is absolutely incredible and I always I find it interesting that she is so successful, but she is also one of like the most like people either love her or hate her.

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There is no gray area. She is one of the most like powerful women in the world like self made billionaire.

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Powerful being able to like make a living off of her vulnerability because she she writes all her own songs and she displays herself in such a way that is so like raw and real.

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And a lot of people seem to have a problem with that like they're threatened by that that she's been able to build this complete empire off of her own like blood sweat and tears and that's like a problem for some people.

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And I just find it so inspirational to be like someone is out here doing like a three and a half hour show with vocals like off the chain like being so kind as well too like she stand up for what she wants, but she also is so kind to her team like she gave all of her truck drivers like bonuses, she's so kind to her dancers to her crew and like you can see that she is well respected.

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But also like not to be fucked with you know what I mean and so I think she is the epitome of like this like bitch that we're talking about you know and like I think that is just so inspirational and it teaches like young women that like yes you can chase chase your dreams.

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And you can also be kind to people along the way but also like stand your ground and say like no I don't I don't want to be treated like this as well.

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So it's a really good balance of like all the things that we just discussed and so I think she's just absolutely incredible.

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I love it too. I love it so much because it's like I think when people initially look at Taylor Swift they see somebody like you've said who has gone through quite an evolution herself of the Eras.

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And even her is it Americana.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where she starts to really notice the ways that she's been muzzled by the music industry by I guess also ultimately perceptions of her and how she works through her own freeing to show up authentically and look.

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Look how exponentially she's grown after doing so so that's a I adore that that's a person that means a lot to you and I think that's true for so many.

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Yeah it is why not it's resonating around the planet.

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I think it's because it gives people like something to believe in like especially even just going to the eras tour like it.

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It just like a vokes emotions like you've watched someone and you've been with someone through their whole like journey and trajectory of life so like all of her musical errors like she was there with me when I was having like my first heartbreak and she was there with me when I was like falling in love and there with me when I was going through the game.

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And there was a song for every single one of those emotions and I feel like if you're able to tie emotions to a part of your life then you're kind of like connected in that way.

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And so being an stadium full of like screaming fans from all ages like body types like cultures like everyone's there together for the same reason you know what I mean like everyone's like hey we have this one like invisible string that like ties us all together and we're all like united and so that I think is why it was such a powerful tours because it was more than just it was more than just the music it was like the principle of we are all like connected and we are all like we are all connected.

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And we are all like the same in this way so I thought that was just really powerful and it just like brought me to tears.

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Yeah.

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How is that going to inspire your art?

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It made me realize that I need to like step it up like after after going to that concert I was like I got to step it up like I got to be more I need to peel back the layers even more

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because I find in my first book I was very open and very vulnerable because I never actually expected a set of eyes to see it it was almost like a letter to the my abusive ex boyfriend like it was a letter to him essentially like all of these poems of things that I never said at the time it was too afraid to say or like only said after the fact.

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And now I'm working on my second book and I'm realizing that I'm almost I'm almost filtering myself kind of because I expect I expect readers now and so I'm like okay I need to like make it approachable to the readers and then I'm having this internal battle of like no no no like go you should just write as if no one's reading it and then and then publish it like that so I'm having to go through and I'm really happy to like tear back a lot of the layers.

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And find like kind of the root of it because I think it's it's easy to fall back into the pattern of like of like sugar coating it or making it more palatable that makes sense.

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Absolutely.

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Well I look forward to reading the raw you and the roots so I think that's a beautiful experience and that that tension internal tension is is part of the beauty of art itself so that's fantastic.

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So the gifting season is upon us and we want people to buy your first book so let them have it let them know where to get it.

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Let them have it.

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Yeah.

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Just my my inner but she's going to let them have it.

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Here we go.

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She's coming she's coming down from the tower with her baseball bat.

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Yeah so so it is called lipstick stains and coffee cups.

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I live in Calgary so it is available at all of the Calgary Indigo locations so you can get it on the shelves there.

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It is available a couple of the local bookstores as well and the main funnel that I'm using for my book is you can buy it directly from my website.

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So it's Jamie Louise Madigan dot com and I have a Shopify page set up there and you can just buy it online and I can ship it to you.

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And in the new year I'm hoping to get it on Amazon ebook and then also audio books that it'll be available on all of those funnels as well so.

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Yeah lots of lots of work for me to do but it's good it keeps me focused and keeps me keeps me on my toes and excited for the future so.

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Well Jamie we really appreciate you.

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The word bitch has been a spiteful word that has really crippled women for centuries and it's important that we talk about it and it's important that we defuse it.

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And we it's important that we allow women to own it on their own terms as you have done and we really appreciate your expression of how that has happened in you because it can really influence so many others who are struggling with this word and struggling within to let that other person out into the world so we appreciate you very much.

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Yeah thank you so much for having me on it was great to be back and really dive dive into it like I think it's just such an interesting topic and I really love what you both are doing.

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Just to kind of bring awareness to like how there's so many different definitions of the words so appreciate it such a pleasure to have you and thank you for reading one of your poems will look forward to seeing your next your next book.

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And yeah thanks for your insights today. And a problem thanks. Happy to be here.

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And you have been listening to the Virgin the beauty and the bitch series.

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Absolutely. Come on back we'll continue this conversation and we would love to have you bring your friends.

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To become a partner in the VBB community we invite you to find us at virginbeautybitch.com. Like us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. And share us with people who are defiantly different like you.

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Until next time thanks for listening.

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(upbeat music)