VBB 313: Sandy Phillips Kirkham - Clergy Abuse!

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Virgin.

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Beauty.

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Bitch.

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Podcast.

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Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear

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of being defiantly different.

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Your hosts.

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Christopher and Heather.

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Let's talk, shall we?

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The United Nations annual 16 days of activism against gender-based violence begins

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November 25th.

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International day for the elimination of violence against women.

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The campaign continues through December 10th, Human Rights Day.

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VBB has supported this United Nations initiative through conversations with women who have

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been victims of violence and abuse.

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This week we welcome advocate, speaker, and author Sandy Phillips Kirkham to Virgin

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Beauty Bitch.

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Welcome.

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Thank you.

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It's good to be here.

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Pleasure to have you.

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Predators with halos around their necks, men of the cloth who pray on the young and innocent.

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To me and Heather, that is next level evil.

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Sandy, you wrote a book about being prayed on by such a man.

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Let me pray with you.

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Which became, let me pray upon you, breaking free from a minister's sexual abuse.

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It's being praised as a courageous memoir, but for anyone not familiar with organized worship,

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can you share what makes a church environment such fertile hunting ground for predators?

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First of all, we give them an automatic trust that we don't automatically get to anyone

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else.

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We go in with the idea that these men, sometimes women, can be trusted.

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We don't look for warning signs or red flags that might indicate that something may be wrong

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that's going on.

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That's probably the first thing.

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We also look to them as being a man of God.

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We put more faith in their words and what they say to us.

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I think those are the two things that probably make.

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Predators go back to people who are vulnerable.

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They look for vulnerable people and the church is full of vulnerable people.

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That's people come to the church for need.

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They come because they have, often times, a hurt in their life and they're looking for some

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stabilization.

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They're looking for God to help them.

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This man will then gravitate to the church sometimes knowing that that's where they can

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find the vulnerable people and the trust that's given to them.

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What was your story?

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How did you get engrossed into this evil den with this person?

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My parents were active in the church, but my best friend asked me to go with her when I

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was about eight.

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I just loved everything about the church.

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It was a place I really enjoyed.

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My parents were divorced and so I didn't see my den much.

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This church was kind of like I looked up to the church leaders.

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I was very active.

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By the time I was 16, I was teaching Sunday schools, singing in an choir.

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If the doors were open, I was there.

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I just loved being a church.

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Church camp, whatever.

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Just after I turned 16, my church hired a new youth pastor and he came with new ideas.

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He was different than anyone we had seen before.

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He was very charismatic.

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He had wonderful sermons.

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He just had an aura about him.

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Within a short period of time, people were treating him like a rock star, really.

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He brought people and he brought money into the church.

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I was active in the church when he arrived, but he got me more involved in the church

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and had me become one of the leaders.

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He was really taking me under his wing.

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Of course, I liked the attention.

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I felt good.

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I felt I was helping the church.

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One day after a youth group meeting, he waited for me to leave.

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It was at my home.

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Once everyone was gone, he spent down on his kiss me.

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I kind of read.

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It was kind of an innocent kiss, but I couldn't quite figure out what he was doing.

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Then I thought, "Well, this is just his way of saying how much he appreciates what I'm

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doing."

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He was very demoscered to have any way.

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He was always hugging people.

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I kind of just thought that maybe the next step.

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That went on for about a year, which I call the grooming process, where he continually supported

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me, helped me, made me really dependent upon him emotionally.

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When he finally went one night, I babysat in their home and his wife worked evenings

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in one night while I was babysitting.

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He put me on the floor and had sex with me.

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At that point, it turned very ugly.

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I could not justify that.

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I understood that was wrong.

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I was 16.

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It was very traumatic for me.

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Yet immediately, he said to me, "You can't tell anyone.

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No one's going to believe you."

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I'm thinking, "I don't believe this is happening to me.

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I'm having sex in the pastor's bed.

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It was horrifying."

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Abuse went on for five years.

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I'm as 16 until I was 21.

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He became controlling.

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He became physically abusive to me.

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He was very degrading to me emotionally.

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I just felt like I was in a black hole with no way out.

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I didn't feel like I could tell anyone.

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I looked back and obviously there were people that probably I could have.

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I couldn't process any of that.

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When your trauma dies, your brain tends to want to secure yourself to a point where you

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just accept it because it's easier than dealing with the trauma.

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I mean, just thank you for your book and what you've shared here.

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I think that there's so many women out there who have gone through something similar.

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There's a lot of internalization of shame and guilt and all of the things that...

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I call.

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Yep.

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Everything that the abuser makes you believe is your contributions to what happened.

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If you had advice for women who have gone through or going through that feeling, what

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would you say to them?

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First, I'm glad that you mentioned the fact that women can be sexually abused by someone

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in the church.

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It's not just minors.

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It's not an affair that these men are having with these women.

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They are taking advantage of their position and using that vulnerability to take advantage

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of her.

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The first thing, and this took me a long time to put this through my own mind, was it was

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not my fault what was done to me.

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I was targeted.

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I was sought after by this individual.

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He groomed and manipulated me to a point that he could control me.

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Victims often blame themselves or thinking, "What can I have done differently?

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Could I have said no?

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What should I have done?"

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When I say this, you did the best you could with the coping skills that you had at the

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time.

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We were in a place that should have been the safest place on our church.

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Again, these men created a code of dependency upon them.

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We don't see a way out.

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Even though there might be, we don't see a way out.

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I think the most important thing is, is to understand what happened to you and what was done to you

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was not your fault.

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You should have been safe with this individual and you weren't.

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Gelton Shame is a horrible thing to carry.

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I carried it for 27 years.

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I never told anyone.

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My husband didn't know.

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My family and friends didn't know.

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That is a burden that affects your life forever.

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It was only once I was able to find my voice and speak that I was able to begin to heal

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and realize that the ugliness that I felt my soul was not my burden to carry.

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It was his.

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I wasn't his first victim.

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I wasn't his last, which is also very common.

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These men are predators.

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Their wolves in sheep's clothing is what they are and they needed to be treated as such.

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I was eventually once he was caught and that's how it ended.

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It went on for five years and I don't think it ever would have ended until he said it

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was over.

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I didn't think I'd ever get married.

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I didn't think I'd have kids.

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I thought this was my life.

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This is what it's going to be.

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I just accepted it.

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When he was caught, he was called into the elders.

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I don't know what narrative they gave him.

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He gave to them.

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I don't know what he said to them.

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But I was never called in to ask any questions.

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I was told where to sit in church.

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I was told I was not to tell my parents.

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It was a very controlled situation, all in an effort to protect him and his family, to get

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them to the next church.

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Shortly after he left, I was called him by the elders and told him, "My behavior,

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I was to leave the church."

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I was devastated.

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I loved that church.

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I believed that everything they had told me about forgiveness was true.

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What I discovered was that they could forgive him, but they couldn't forgive me.

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Not that I should have been forgiven for anything.

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To be thrown out of a church was, as I've often said, probably had more of an effect on

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my life going forward than the actual abuse.

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I remember saying, "Go ahead."

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How do you, as a woman, seeing this?

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I would seem very clear to me that man versus woman here in this situation.

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As the woman, how do you process that as being victimized twice?

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Well, you just carried the guilt and shame.

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I just accepted it.

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These were men in the church.

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They were the elders.

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I was told that I wasn't because they assumed that I was the one that had sought after him.

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They blamed me, which is very common in the churches today, to blame the victim.

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What did you do or say to encourage him, which was absolutely nothing.

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Most of these women, there is no encouragement.

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We'll say this about that.

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Even if there is some woman who comes on to the pastor, the priest, or the rabbi, even

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as she overtly flirts with him, he is a professional.

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He needs to see that as a cry for help and not an invitation to go to bed.

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He is the one responsible for maintaining the boundaries of that ministry.

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It's not her job to make sure that he does his job.

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For me, for 27 years, I hated myself for what I had done.

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I was fearful that someone would ever discover my secret.

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It was a heavy burden to carry for 27 years until a trigger forced me to deal with it.

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It was in the first chapter of the book.

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I talked about how I had this trigger that sent me over the edge.

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It was at that point, I realized that this man didn't ever love me.

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He never cared for me.

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He hurt me.

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He hurt me in such a devastating way, and that I needed to do something.

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That put me on my journey of healing, which was a very difficult journey for a long, long

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time.

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One of the things that I did was I had the need to confront him.

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I had no contact with him for 27 years.

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I didn't know if he was still alive, but I hired a private investigator.

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I found him ministering in a church in Alabama, and I confronted him.

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That was huge to my healing.

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I was fortunate in the sense that he couldn't deny it.

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So many victims that they were to confront their views or would get excuses like, "This

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happens so long.

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I don't know what you're talking about.

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You must understand."

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He'd always been dramatic.

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They could have given it.

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He couldn't do any of that because he was caught, and it was public.

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I went into that meeting, knowing at least he couldn't deny what I was telling him.

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Is that what happened?

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He didn't deny it.

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How did that feel for you at the time?

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I was absolutely scared because I was so afraid I would get into that room, and I would be

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16 all over again.

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He would manipulate me like he always did.

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He would try to make me feel like it was my fault for exposing him now or whatever he

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was going to say.

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He did try that, but I was very strong in my resolute and how I handled him.

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The one thing I said, I said a lot of things to him, but the one thing I wanted to be sure

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I said to him was to look him in the eye and say to him, "You had no right to do what you

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did to me and it was wrong."

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He didn't deny it, but he then went into excuses.

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He went into that he had an alcoholic father, and that's the way he was.

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He also said he'd been in therapy and been identified as a sexual addict.

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He never could voice to me what he had really done to me.

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I don't think he understood how I lived for 27 years with guilt and shame.

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He never could verbalize to me how this damage my spiritual life, how it affected my church

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life, how it contaminated everything for me.

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It was almost as if he said, "Well, now that you're here and you've said that I'm sorry and

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let's move on."

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That was the failure.

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I think it was probably an expectation I shouldn't have had.

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He wasn't ever going to be able to understand what he did.

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My husband was in the meeting as well, and one of his points was, "You have gotten therapy.

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You've taken these people around you who've helped you and what about all your victims?"

247
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,120
He said there were many along the way.

248
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,120
They weren't all minors.

249
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,840
It was more about him, which again, I should not have been surprised, but I did expose

250
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,400
him, which was one of the other things that when I went into the meeting, I discovered that

251
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,360
his current church, the elders in the church, had no idea about his past.

252
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,920
That horrified me.

253
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:04,200
His boss was sitting there and I said, "Look, this is not appropriate.

254
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,360
The elders need to be aware of his past.

255
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:07,360
This should not be hidden."

256
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:14,560
I said that I was going to write to 11 elders and a very factual, I just simply say who I

257
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:15,560
was.

258
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,560
I was and my concerns about him remaining in ministry.

259
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,560
And this is what he did.

260
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,560
It's been a pattern of his,

261
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:26,560
and he should be removed from the ministry.

262
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:27,560
I'll let you guess how many responded.

263
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:28,560
Zero.

264
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:29,560
Zero

265
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:30,560
Not one responded back.

266
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:31,560
she'll go away.

267
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:32,560
I then went to the president of his denomination.

268
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:33,560
Again, the answer I received was

269
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:34,560
that this was something

270
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:35,560
that happened 27 years ago.

271
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:45,560
I then went to the president of this denomination.

272
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,560
Again, the answer I received was something that was something that was 27 years ago.

273
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:50,560
We believe God changes people.

274
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,560
And there's no validity to what was done to you 27 years ago to today.

275
00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:56,560
To who this man is today.

276
00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:01,560
So I made every effort I could to expose him.

277
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:07,560
In the back of my book, the letter that I received was basically telling me I was an evil person.

278
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:11,560
And that the only reason I was exposing him was out of revenge.

279
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,560
And she closed by saying, "I hope you're happy with your evilness."

280
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:16,560
She.

281
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,560
Yeah, it was a woman who was in the chart who responded back to me.

282
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,560
And this is why victims are afraid to come forward.

283
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:24,560
This is what happens.

284
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:25,560
We are judged.

285
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,560
We are told we are being vindictive.

286
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,560
We are not believed.

287
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,560
They rally around the offender.

288
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,560
And victims are revictimized by that.

289
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,560
I was strong enough to handle the response.

290
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,560
I will say it shook me to my core when I was reading the letter.

291
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:51,560
But I wonder if that had been sent to another victim if they would have been able strong enough to have responded to her allegations like that.

292
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,560
It's a horrible letter she wrote.

293
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,560
She was horrible.

294
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,560
And I told me I was going to be responsible for the failure of the chart.

295
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:06,560
If I kept up with this, I mean, she then went on to my only goal is to hurt someone who hurt me.

296
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,560
And I thought, no, it's not my goal.

297
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:10,560
Does it not?

298
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:11,560
But that's what she wanted to believe.

299
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:22,560
Does it not strike you even more that another woman would actually take that line of attack to another woman?

300
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,560
It does to some extent, except you have to understand the culture of the church.

301
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,560
A lot of times women in the church are under the guys of men, they're under men leadership.

302
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,560
They don't have leadership roles.

303
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,560
They also, I think, for people in the church, not just women.

304
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,560
They looked up to this person.

305
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,560
He may have baptized their children.

306
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:42,560
He's married their kids.

307
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,560
He's sad at their bedside when their mother was dying.

308
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,560
So they have a personal connection with him.

309
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:53,560
And so it's easier for them to not put this man, give him consequences for his behavior.

310
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:54,560
It's easier to blame the victim.

311
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,560
It's easier to put blinders on to face the truth.

312
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,560
I think that has a lot to do with it.

313
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:01,560
They also miss you, scripture.

314
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,560
I've been told many times.

315
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,560
Well, God forgives you, so you should forgive him.

316
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,560
Or we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

317
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,560
So therefore, you know, he should not suffer consequences for his behavior.

318
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,560
That's absolutely, it's misuse of scripture.

319
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,560
That's not what it's meant.

320
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,560
You know, someone said, well, you shouldn't be judging him.

321
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,560
I'm not judging whether this man is going to be in heaven or hell.

322
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,560
I'm judging his ability to do his job.

323
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,560
And he's proven by his actions.

324
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,560
He's not fit to do that job.

325
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,560
And the church fails to do it.

326
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,560
They see it as a moral issue.

327
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,560
And not necessarily as a professional issue.

328
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,560
He shouldn't be in that position.

329
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,560
Absolutely not.

330
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,560
But churches fail in that area.

331
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,560
I mean, we've seen it in the Catholic Church, but it's not just a Catholic issue.

332
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:49,560
I mean, I'm not.

333
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:50,560
I was in a Protestant church.

334
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:56,560
Women are abused and controlled in the church more often than we'd like to believe.

335
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,560
I actually looked at this statistic.

336
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,560
There are roughly 350,000 to 400,000 churches in the United States.

337
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,560
In Canada, it's about 28,000 places of worship.

338
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,560
So these are all fertile grounds.

339
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,560
If you get the wrong person in the wrong position, that can damage a lot.

340
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,560
And what happens is I can, yeah, in my case, instead of disciplining him and removing him,

341
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,560
they move into the next church.

342
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,560
So you're creating more victims by allowing these men to continue.

343
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,560
And I look up.

344
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,560
I'm not saying that even if the God wants to forgive him,

345
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,560
or that they can't deserve that grace that God gives to every person in the world,

346
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,560
to you in the back or outside the church, they don't deserve that grace and forgiveness,

347
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,560
standing in the pulpit.

348
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,560
Forgiveness and grace does not mean you are returned to your job.

349
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,560
That's not the goal of forgiveness and grace.

350
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,560
The goal is to get yourself back right with Christ.

351
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,560
And once you do that, you then have an understanding that what I did was so horrific,

352
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,560
I can never be trusted to be back in the church again.

353
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,560
I'm glad you've highlighted this because this was a conversation that came up on another episode

354
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:10,560
of the story, and I'm saying that exactly how you framed it, that there is such power and genuine retribution

355
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:16,560
that I think a church can offer with forgiveness, but that it's been so weaponized

356
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:23,560
in order to keep certain people safe or unaccountable to very horrendous actions,

357
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:30,560
that it's almost been, for lack of a better word, bastardized and manipulated

358
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,560
beyond what its intentions were to be.

359
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,560
And I think that reconciliation is something that people within the church really need to think about

360
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:45,560
is not allowing other people of their faith to use that as a scapegoat from very damaging behavior.

361
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:46,560
Exactly.

362
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:53,560
And what you do when you protect these men is then you allow more victims to surface.

363
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,560
Because in my case, again, in his first church, he'd had an incident of sexual misconduct.

364
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:04,560
And when my elders found out the woman came forward after he was hired at our church, he didn't deny it.

365
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,560
He said it never happened again. He asked for forgiveness.

366
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:08,560
They saw it as a mistake.

367
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:09,560
They believed that he was sorry.

368
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,560
They believed that he would ask for forgiveness.

369
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,560
So he continued his youth pastor and none of that information was given out to the church.

370
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:18,560
This had happened in prior church.

371
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,560
Within six months, he's kissing me in my hallway.

372
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,560
He made a confession to the church after he was caught.

373
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,560
As people were starting, the rumor mill was starting.

374
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,560
Some people were wondering why he was leaving and you know how that can go in the church.

375
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,560
And so they said he needed to make a confession.

376
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,560
Well, here's what he said.

377
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:37,560
I'm a man of God.

378
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,560
I've sinned against God.

379
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560
I'm just a man who's sinned against my wife and I ask for forgiveness.

380
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,560
That's all he said.

381
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:49,560
In two days of that accusation, he was telling me he wanted to meet me in a hotel room.

382
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,560
So, you know, he was lying from the moment he started.

383
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,560
And that's a thing that church, I think they failed to see as well.

384
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,560
This is a man who lied.

385
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:00,560
This is a deliberate act.

386
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,560
These are accidents.

387
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,560
This was a deliberate act that went over a period of time.

388
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,560
It's a deliberate act that he had committed once before.

389
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,560
Or at least could have been more than that.

390
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,560
And yet they still continue to want to protect him.

391
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,560
And it does bother the mind.

392
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:16,560
It really does.

393
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,560
How has this affected your faith?

394
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,560
You know, I never really blamed God or wondered where he was during this time.

395
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,560
But it's certainly changed how I feel about the church itself.

396
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,560
I have very many triggers when I'm in church.

397
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,560
I took my kids to church every Sunday because I wanted them to have that experience.

398
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,560
And I didn't want what happened to me to be tainted in their own relationship with God.

399
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,560
But every Sunday that I went, I put blinders on.

400
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,560
I wouldn't listen to anybody prayed.

401
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,560
I barely listened to this sermon.

402
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,560
Every time I walked past the minister's office, I got a knot in my stomach.

403
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,560
That was my norm.

404
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,560
Every Sunday that I went to church.

405
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:02,560
As I got older and my kids went to college and moved out, I still continue to try and go.

406
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,560
And now when I go, I just have to be aware that I'm going to be uncomfortable.

407
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,560
And then I make my mind up if I'm ready to do that or not.

408
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,560
It's really contaminated that part of my faith.

409
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,560
I'm very uncomfortable in someone's praise.

410
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,560
I don't listen to other people's prayers.

411
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,560
I pray myself.

412
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,560
So, you know, he took something very special from me.

413
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,560
I love the church.

414
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,560
It brought me peace and joy.

415
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,560
And now it just brings me conflict and pain.

416
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,560
And I think when people say to me, "Are you angry at him?"

417
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,560
I am in the sense of what he took from me.

418
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,560
He took that specialness that I had connection with the church away from me.

419
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,560
And I'm not sure I can get that back.

420
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,560
And I'm okay with that, in a sense.

421
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,560
And I think God's okay with that.

422
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,560
I think God's big enough to understand what I've been through.

423
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,560
And this is my issue with the church is understandable.

424
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,560
I mean, I had sex in his office at the church.

425
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,560
You know, this was a place that he would preach on Sunday mornings about the sanctity of marriage.

426
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,560
And then had sex with me the night before.

427
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,560
How does a person make that connection that this is okay?

428
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,560
And what do you do with that?

429
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,560
So, you know, in my mind, it was just, I just have to accept this because I don't know what else to do with it.

430
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:19,560
I'm stuck.

431
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:20,560
I just get this in.

432
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,560
I just have a belief that faith, religion, whatever you want to call it, is perfect.

433
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:26,560
But people are not.

434
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,560
Exactly.

435
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,560
And when you let those evil men in, you are taking the church.

436
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,560
You're not promoting what you believe.

437
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,560
You're actually allowing evil to come into your church.

438
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,560
And it's not a good thing.

439
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,560
These churches need to do better.

440
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,560
Until there's true accountability, there's no real reason to stop.

441
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,560
They just continue to get exactly what they want when they want it.

442
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,560
And when things don't work out, they get moved around.

443
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:03,560
And my views are still a pastor. He's still a pastor. He has credentials that allow him to continue minister.

444
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,560
I think he's retired right now.

445
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:06,560
Not sure.

446
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:14,560
But he really didn't suffer any consequences for his behavior with me or any of his other victims that he Clinton he had.

447
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,560
And when he told me he had been identified as a sexual addict, I can't be looking at his boss thinking.

448
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,560
And that's an appropriate place for this man.

449
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,560
But that's where some of the churches are.

450
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:32,560
How do you look at someone say I'm a sexual addict and I'm hiding it from everyone in my church.

451
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,560
And I have a history of abusing women and I'm going to be the minister of this church.

452
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,560
And he was.

453
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,560
You know.

454
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:48,560
I think there's as you identified already, there's an abuser to women as the major layer.

455
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:55,560
And the layered reality that you are a minor is actually it's just that actual level of insidious.

456
00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:02,560
So as you said with somebody who is meant to be trusted and has the charisma to win people over.

457
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,560
And they want an entire church.

458
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:05,560
They groomed.

459
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:06,560
They don't just groom the victim.

460
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:17,560
They groom the entire congregation because they need those people in their camp and on their side so that if they are accused or caught, they've already got their people behind them.

461
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,560
And that's what happened in my church.

462
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,560
He was treated like a rock star.

463
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,560
And he was very charismatic.

464
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:24,560
Like he brought a lot of people into the church.

465
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,560
He brought money into the church and they didn't want to lose that.

466
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,560
They didn't want to lose it.

467
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,560
And so it was easier to blame me than to deal with him.

468
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,560
You became expendable.

469
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,560
I did.

470
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,560
But you didn't allow that and you stood up.

471
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,560
You know, when the timing was right for you and good on you for that.

472
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:49,560
Because everyone who can find the strength to do it helps end this cycle or allow people to get away with these things.

473
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,560
So good on you because that's not easy.

474
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:53,560
Right.

475
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,560
It isn't.

476
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,560
But I was, you know, I had that trigger that just it was that moment that said I can't go back.

477
00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Whatever's happening here.

478
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,560
I've got to figure out how to heal from this and go forward.

479
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,560
And really I thought once I confronted him, okay, this will be it. I'll be done.

480
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:17,560
And then I realized that I had a voice and I knew one of the things that stuck with me so many times was that I wondered if I had heard someone's story when this was happening to me would have given me the courage to come forward.

481
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:28,560
And so I know victims out there are silent still and it's the hope that you know hearing my story or anyone's story, you know, it gives them some hope and encouragement that they can tell someone.

482
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:38,560
And many victims regardless of the fact that we are much aware of this issue often think they're the only ones or that it's not happening to anyone else in the same way.

483
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,560
And really these these men and again sometimes women think of playbook. It's the kind of the same.

484
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:49,560
What they do. And so when when a victim will read my story and say wow.

485
00:25:49,560 --> 00:26:03,560
And I've heard so many times they'll send me you're telling my story. And so yeah, it was and you know, I think to for me, it's been healing to be able to speak my truth and expose him.

486
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:09,560
But more importantly to be able to help other victims see that there is hope and that there's healing.

487
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Beautiful.

488
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:22,560
We love to ask our guests if there's one of the words that's in the name of our podcast that spoke to you whether it was a moment in your life or something that you kind of had a journey with.

489
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:33,560
But if there's something that has a visceral response or something that matter means something to you of the virgin, the beauty or the bitch, we would we would love to hear it.

490
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:45,560
Well, I'm sure my user would say bitch, but I'm going to say that it's beauty. I have a beautiful story. I had something very evil and devastating happened to me.

491
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,560
And for 27 years, I carry guilt and shame.

492
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:56,560
And that prevented me from seeing the beauty of my soul. I could only see the ugly missing evil in my soul for 27 years.

493
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:08,560
And once I found my voice, I then could see I had beauty in my soul and that the lies he told me the shame of being kicked out of my church were not my guilt and my shame.

494
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,560
They belong to the church and they belong to him and that brought beauty back into my life.

495
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,560
And so I think beauty is the one that fits me the best.

496
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:37,560
I'd like to introduce you to a different interpretation of the bitch. I think that when you think of him and how he thinks of you, that it's the common way that we think of bitch, but you said he were triggered and that trigger sparked something and you encourage you to do something you thought you could never do.

497
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:46,560
That is the bitch that we celebrate here. Is that part of the person that goes out and I like that definition better.

498
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:59,560
I'm going to remember that because you know, like I said, the letter that called me evil. I'm sure that was in their mind. So it's nice to know that there can be some bitch in me that's OK. That's good.

499
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,560
Absolutely.

500
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:12,560
We love that part and for women to see that part of themselves that stood up against all odds as a force of strength.

501
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:27,560
So it's nice to reclaim the word not for it to be the hurtful things that sometimes it's intended to be from someone else, but a very fierce force within us that helps protect us.

502
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:37,560
Or at least stand our ground. So your book. Tell us about the book and how people can get their hands on that and get in touch with your story.

503
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:48,560
The book is let me pray upon you. As you said, it's available on Amazon. It's also made on my website, which I encourage people if you get a chance to check that out.

504
00:28:48,560 --> 00:29:06,560
It's just my simply my name. It's Sandy S&DY Phillips, P H I L L IPS and then Kirkham K I R K H M dot com. And even people who aren't necessarily abuse victims, I think would find it helpful for educational purpose to understand how clergy abuse does happen.

505
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:21,560
Because so many times people are confused as to why it happens and why we do what we do is don't say no and those kinds of things. So that's where the book is available. And I tell people it's a difficult read maybe in the beginning because I don't mix any words. I talk about the abuse.

506
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:31,560
But it goes to the point of healing and being an advocate for other victims. And so proud of the book. I think it's helpful for other victims, but for those who want to understand it as well.

507
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:41,560
I can't say enough about your courage and what it is you are offering others in your situation or helping prevent that situation in their lives.

508
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,560
Cannot say enough about your courage. Thank you.

509
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:55,560
Thank you. It's been such a pleasure to have you and thank you for your insights and yeah, just really blown away with with who you are and what you brought here.

510
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,560
So I can't wait to get my copy of your book. So I encourage our listeners to do the same.

511
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Thank you. And you have been listening to the Virgin the beauty and the bitch. Find us like us. Share us and bring yourself back with some friends to become a partner in the BBD community.

512
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:28,560
We invite you to find us at virgin beautybitch dot com. Like us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and share us with people who are defiantly different like you.

513
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,360
Until next time, thanks for listening.

514
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,940
(upbeat music)