VBB 312: Jamie Louise Madigan - Poetry For Women, Abused!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

The United Nations annual 16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence begins November 25, which is International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. The campaign continues through December 10th, Human Rights Day. For the past five years, Virgin Beauty Bitch. Has supported this UN initiative through conversations with women who have been victims of violence and abuse. This week, we say welcome to indie poet and author Jamie Louise Madigan. Welcome to Virgin Beauty Bitch.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:00:56]:

Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Christopher [00:00:58]:

It is our pleasure to have you. Now, before we move forward, Jamie, I want to clarify something: it's not our intent to turn this series into a man-bashing event because a great majority of men in the world would give the skin off their bones to help others, women included. But the statistics don't lie, and it's women who suffer most from abuse and violence. According to the World Health Organization, nearly one in three, that's 30% of women, have been subjected to physical or sexual violence by an intimate partner or non-partner. Now, Jamie, we met a few months back at the Women's Show, where I stumbled over your booth and bought your book, Lipstick Stains and Coffee Cups, which is literally boiling over with passion, pain, and self-discovery. But this book of poetry only came into existence after your experience as a victim of abuse. Maybe you can walk us through what or who was happening in your life that set all this in motion.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:02:01]:

Yeah, the relationship started when I was quite young; I was 18 years old. And at first, this is the most interesting part, is because I think a lot of people, when they think of abuse, they immediately think of that stereotypical person who's like drugs and alcohol and tattoos and covered in smoke. And you know that I feel like that gets portrayed a lot in society and in television shows. But I think the scariest part about abuse is that it's people who just appear very normal on the surface. So this person that I was attracted to when I was 18 years old, he was very charismatic and funny and interesting and inquisitive and smart. And so I was really drawn to that kind of personality. And then it wasn't until later in the relationship, once he kind of kind of got his claws in me, I guess metaphorically to speak, that he started to show his true colors. So, at the time, I didn't know.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:03:02]:

It was my very first relationship. And so I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what boundaries were. And I thought that him being mean and him being disrespectful to me was just part of the natural ebbs and flows. Like, I was very naive. And I also was so in love with him that I kind of just put up with behavior that is just not acceptable.

Christopher [00:03:26]:

So, did you turn? I hear a lot. We've talked to a lot of women on this topic. Did you find yourself turning his, whatever, disdain for you or whatever it was, his whatever that became, did you find yourself owning that yourself as your fault?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:03:43]:

Yeah, it was a lot of, he would always project a lot. Like, he would never take accountability for his behavior. It was sort of like his thoughts were the only thoughts that mattered. And if I went against anything that he had said, then it would feel like he took that as an attack. So he would always say to me, like, you're the one that has problems. You're the one that needs to go to therapy.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:04:06]:

You're the one that, like, has an issue here. And I felt that truly, very deeply. Obviously, I wasn't perfect, and I didn't show up in the relationship 100% of the time. I mean, I think that's just being a human being. You're not always going to be perfect. But I did always try and show up with a level of respect and with a level of understanding for him. But it was very hard because when he spoke with me, it was a constant cycle of him putting me down and, like, making me feel like I was nothing and worthless.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:04:39]:

And he would. He would physically say that. He would be like, you are nothing. You are worthless. Like, if I wasn't with you, nobody would be with you. He once told me, he said, you're the weakest girl I know. And I remember that stuck with me because at the time, I truly, like, I truly believed it. Like I was a shell of who I used to be.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:05:01]:

And that, like, it just. It rang so true to me. Obviously, now, in hindsight, I know that that's not the case, but just where I was in the relationship, it just felt very true to me at the time. So, that was really hard to navigate because it was a very gray area like fact, and fiction was very meshed.

Christopher [00:05:20]:

I really appreciate what you said there because I want to back the bus up a little bit. Who were you prior, or who did you think you were? Who did you know yourself to be before this relationship? What kind of confidence did you have in yourself?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:05:37]:

Oh, I felt incredibly confident. I feel like even my family and friends always knew me as the kind of person who was very bright, very open and outgoing, and always really eager to be present in conversations. And throughout the relationship, I feel like my friends and family watched me become like. Like I had said, like a shell of who I was. I became very withdrawn, and I became very, like, lights on, but nobody's home. And I also felt very isolated because, in the relationship, he didn't necessarily want me to have a support system. So because of that, he decided to sort of single me out so that I wouldn't necessarily tell any of my friends and family any of the bad things that he was doing to me so that it felt like it was him and I against the world. And that kind of contributed to my withdrawn behavior and kind of me turning into this shell.

Christopher [00:06:45]:

So, if Jamie of today were to look back at Jamie of that age, what would you be saying to yourself?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:06:55]:

I think it's hard to say because I feel like I wouldn't have even, I wouldn't have even listened. Like, there's a moment where you want to say, okay, I want to grab you by the hair and just pull you out of there. But I feel like at that age, I kind of was just, I didn't really want to listen to anyone's opinion, and it didn't matter to me because I felt this sense of loyalty to him. I think I created so much of this feeling of, like, well, I am your girlfriend, and we are a team, and I need to go to bat for you no matter what. And when that ended, it was so humiliating because it's like, I went to war essentially for you, and you left me in ruins.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:07:41]:

But I think I would say, like, even if I think of myself, I would say I would tell myself to stop lying to my friends and family. I think that was the biggest thing that I was lying to myself, and then I was lying to them and watering down. And I think that was the biggest issue. It's what made the abuse carry on because I felt like I really had no one to turn to. So I would say, don't lie. Keep your support system. Don't put up with this when he is mean to you, when he is telling you terrible things, and when he is doing these things to you. Stand up for yourself. And also have the courage to leave at the first instinct of knowing that something is wrong.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:08:26]:

I gave out hundreds and hundreds of chances. And that was just not good for my mental health to stay in it that long.

Christopher [00:08:34]:

Do you remember the first? Do you remember your first sign where you went, oh, my God?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:08:39]:

Yeah, I do. I do remember. It was very. This is a strange memory because it's hard. You don't necessarily hear examples like this in general; it's a pretty personal story, but I'll explain it just this little.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:08:59]:

I remember we were taking a shower, and he had said, like, he got out of the shower and had finished, and he had his towel, and he wrapped his towel around him. And then I was about to get out, and I was like, oh, I can borrow your towel. And he's like, no, this is my towel. I was like, oh, okay, well, you can get me another one. And he's like, no, no, this is mine. You can bring your own next time.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:09:25]:

And I remember, I stood there, and I was like, I remember just shaking in the shower naked. And he had left the bathroom. He went off to go play video games or do something else. And I remember just feeling so, like, dehumanized. I was like, I don't even know what to call this because, at the time, I just couldn't put together the pieces.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:09:52]:

I was like, this just feels so, like, dehumanizing, and this feels terrible. But I wouldn't know how to; I didn't want to go call up my friends and be like, hey, he left me shivering alone in the shower. Like, it's so hard to put that into words, you know? And I remember that's when I kind of started to keep things to myself.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:10:10]:

And I didn't even leave after that. I just kind of clocked it in my head. If I was like, okay, this feels a little off, but, like, maybe he's just having a bad day, which is a delusional thing to say because that's not an acceptable way to treat someone. So that was kind of the first thing I remember of, like, okay, this feels like something feels off here.

Christopher [00:10:27]:

But then it just snowballed from there and got worse and worse?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:10:31]:

It did. Yeah. I remember a big component of it, too, was he was very critical about my weight. Well, and I've been fairly fit most of my life. Like, I take care of myself. I eat well, and I exercise daily.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:10:47]:

And he would always pull at the extra skin around my stomach, and he would say, you know, you better do something about that because otherwise I might leave you. Or, like, I remember he was very critical of me eating certain things and didn't want me to eat too much or things like that. And he, at one point, I felt so beaten down by it that he constantly was making me feel like if I wasn't small or if I didn't shrink down to be, like, the size that he thought was desirable, that I didn't know how to really navigate that. And so I sort of would have these breakdown moments where I would essentially be begging him to treat me better.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:11:34]:

And I would say, you know what, I wish you would treat me better. And he looked at me one day, and he said, okay, you want me to treat you better? Okay, well, get to 100 pounds. Get to 100 pounds, and I will treat you better. And I remember it felt so jarring that week to hear that. But the crazy thing is that in my mind, I was so messed up from the manipulation and everything that he had put me through that in that week; I genuinely tried to get to 100 pounds, which is just so sad to think of.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:12:06]:

I almost grieve for that version of myself because it's so far away from who I am now. I remember I didn't necessarily starve myself, but I was not eating a lot. Like, I ate maybe an apple or a couple of nuts, and I was eating as small as humanly possible so that I couldn't put on an extra pound because I thought that he would maybe notice. And then it felt like I was not being loyal to him because that's what he wanted, and he wanted me to be this certain way. Like, it was just so. The abuse and the manipulation just ran so deep that it really affected, like, my entire psyche and my entire way of dealing with things.

Christopher [00:12:45]:

So all of this culminated into a book?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:12:48]:

It did, yeah.

Christopher [00:12:49]:

You had so much experience and hung onto so many memories that you actually pushed it out into writing. Why was poetry the avenue for this?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:13:03]:

It's interesting because I never. The crazy thing is I never planned on writing a book. I'd always loved creative writing when I was younger. I was in journalism class when I was in high school; I was in creative writing all throughout my life. I loved English classes. I find that's an avenue that I always excelled in. But it wasn't until the actual breakup that I felt all of this pain and all of this resentment and anger brewing.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:13:31]:

When you read through some of the poems in Lipstick Stains and Coffee Cups, you can feel that anger and just so much pain and suffering that I just poured into it. The reason why I chose poetry is because I felt like that was the best way to describe it while still sort of masking what actually happened. I felt like I was still trying to protect him in a way, which is so crazy, too, because the relationship had ended. But I think it was almost like a fear, too. I'm like, if I write a memoir and go over every single detail, that's almost too much. So let me just do a creative outlet and let me just layer a bunch of things with metaphors. Then this can be fun for me, too, because I love writing metaphors. And I love being creative. And I love making my mind think of different things.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:14:21]:

Let me just layer this, and let me just see. Then other people can read it, and they can have their own opinion on what they think it is, and they can even draw their own conclusions and maybe even apply it to their own life. So, I do love poetry, and I thought it started off with me sort of trying to protect the situation, but also then it kind of turned into me finding joy and also finding relief in being able to get it out on the page and express myself.

Christopher [00:14:49]:

If I were to use the word healing, would you agree with that word as far as that process?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:14:54]:

Oh, yeah. It was incredibly cathartic. I think being in the relationship, I felt very muzzled a lot of the time, and my thoughts didn't matter. He told me, I don't like the way you think. He even told me he didn't like the way that I spoke. Sometimes he's like, I don't like the way you speak to me. Or, I don't like the way your voice sounds when you tell a story. Which is like, I would come home from work some days and tell a story.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:15:21]:

And sometimes, when you tell a story, you know, your voice changes octaves a little bit just so you can kind of add context and layers to a story. He would interrupt me and say, I don't like the way you change your voice. I don't like the way your voice sounds. Like your words don't matter or you don't matter. Like, just constant of that. So I think being in a relationship where you're kind of told that you don't matter, that your words don't have a platform or a place to land, so when the relationship ended, I was like, oh, I have all of this built up and bubbling inside of me, and I have nowhere to really put it because I don't want to speak to him anymore, because I need to not have a dangerous person in my life. So let me just put this into this avenue where I can express my pain in a cathartic, healing, happy way, and I can use it as, like, a passion project, and I can use it to hopefully help other women who have been through the same thing.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:16:14]:

So it kind of really did come full circle, and I'm grateful that I was able to discover poetry as an avenue to do that.

Christopher [00:16:20]:

So, I sent you a note just recently that I would love for you to read. What do you think of that? Is that okay?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:16:27]:

Yeah, absolutely. I know there was. There were two you had in mind.

Christopher [00:16:31]:

Yeah, the first one was: Highest Room, Tallest Tower.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:16:34]:

Yeah, I have it right here. So, I'm welcome to read it out, and we can discuss what you think. I always love to hear, and it's always interesting to see what the reader's perception is because I always write my poems with a certain idea going into them of what I believe it to be. Then, readers can read it and have a completely different viewpoint. So that's the beauty of poetry, is that it's up to everyone's own discretion.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:16:59]:

Okay, so this is called the Highest Room, Tallest Tower. I've always been told you are such a sweetheart. You are a good person. You are so nice. I smile and say thank you, taking it as a compliment, as if they don't know I have full capacity to reverse their words and morph into the monster every man dreams about. Instead, I lock her in the highest room in the tallest tower, starve her, drown her in kindness. I refuse to be the woman who torments those I care about because we've been taught being a nasty bitch has higher sex appeal.

Christopher [00:17:38]:

Wow.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:17:39]:

Thank you, Goosebumps.

Christopher [00:17:43]:

I mean, there's a lot of things going on there that the mind can go in many, many different directions. So when you sat down to write that, where were you?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:17:55]:

I think it had been just when the relationship had ended, and I was kind of going into this fight in my head. I think one of my biggest insecurities has always been the fact that I have always been a very nice, kind, nurturing person. And I remember feeling angry at myself because I was so nice and kind and nurturing, and that kind of behavior allowed him to do that to me. But I think, honestly, someone who is that abusive in their nature, I think they would do that to anyone, regardless of how kind or nice they are. I think being kind and nice may put you at maybe a little bit more of a target for someone like that because they see it as someone who's easy to manipulate. But I felt so self-critical, and I felt for the longest time that I wanted to rip that part out of me. And I would fantasize about being this crazy bitch who takes no shit and just trailblazes and stomps on men's hearts with her high heels, you know? And that's just kind of a weird way to think because I wanted to be so far removed from who I was in the relationship because I was like, well, clearly, this is what got me into a bad situation.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:19:10]:

So maybe if I switch gears and I become a crazy bitch who ruins men's lives, that will be better. And then, when writing the poem, I realized, like, no, that's not a healthy way to think. You shouldn't feel the need to be a certain way or be different than who you are to gain respect or validation from the opposite sex. So even though being this crazy bitch is maybe glamorized in society or seen as desirable, I was like, I'm never gonna morph myself into something that I'm not just for the validation or for the satisfaction of men thinking that I'm desirable. So that was kind of the thought process behind it.

Christopher [00:19:53]:

It's interesting. Obviously, I chose that because it is part of our name, and there are so many ways that people think about that word and the people that they give that word to, but it's interesting that it goes from one extreme to another. You're a good girl, or you're a crazy bitch. Like there's nothing in the middle.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:20:14]:

And I think it's interesting because even the term. I've definitely, even since writing this poem, like I wrote these poems about ten years ago, my interpretation and my definition have definitely changed over the years because I don't necessarily think a bitch is someone who is necessarily mean or terrible. Like, a bitch could simply just be someone who has good boundaries and has high standards and is firm in who they are and what they're willing to put up with and what they won't tolerate. Like, it's someone who has really strong non-negotiables. Some people might see that as a threat. They're threatened by someone having standards and boundaries, and they want to inflict their own insecurities on that person and be like, oh, that person's a crazy bitch. And it's like, no, that person's just standing up for what they believe in, and they value themselves enough to follow through with that thought process.

Christopher [00:21:13]:

You should join us in December because we are going to do a four-part series. And the character you just portrayed there is basically what we mean when we use the word. It's just as opposed to this person that we put down because we call them that word. So thank you for explaining that and sharing that because that is our ideal of what we mean when we use the word.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:21:41]:

It's interesting to see how my perception of it has changed over the years because when I was writing it, I was very young and naive. And I also feel like I had a lot of hatred towards women, which is crazy. I remember the other woman that he had been with during the relationship; he had cheated on me with his ex-girlfriend. And I remember immediately thinking that she was the problem and placing so much blame on her. You can see that in the poems, too. Like, you can see that I just immediately jumped to the conclusion that she's a terrible person and she's crazy and she's insane and like, that's just not fair to women to do that. And that wasn't right of me to feel. I almost feel guilty for sometimes writing some of the poems, but I know that they were true to me at the time, at that time of grief as I was grieving that relationship.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:22:34]:

But over the years, I've learned, like, it's not fair for women to be against each other because we're on the same side. Like, we need to unite. The best part about this relationship is that I was able to become best friends with two of the women he also dated after me. The three of us, we all connected. We went on a hike together. One of them, I went to her wedding. She got married to somebody else; she's got a brand new baby. The other one, like, we still keep in touch with, and we go for coffee and drinks all the time.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:23:04]:

And it's just these empowering female friendships that are so rewarding because they are women who have been through the exact same thing that I have. We understand each other on such a deep level, and we didn't let the fact that there's a terrible person that kind of connect us, and we didn't feel vengeful or jealous of one another. We just came together and felt like, you know what, this is important that we stand strong and put this friendship first and just learn to appreciate each other.

Christopher [00:23:33]:

So that is so powerful. I mean, we have these conversations because we want to share experiences that so many people have, but they have no connection to see the bigger picture and how it affects you as an individual. But also, women, in general, have gone through the same thing and hurt the same way. I'm looking for the same release. Now. Your book, obviously having been read by so many women, I'm sure that a lot of them have reached out to you to share how they resonate.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:24:13]:

Yeah, I've had a lot of people reach out, saying that my book has made them cry, which is very heartwarming. I certainly don't intend to make people cry, but sometimes that's needed, and it shows that there's a sense of camaraderie knowing that we're all in this together and people have actually experienced the same thing. I have because I remember when I was in it, I felt incredibly isolated and alone, and I sort of thought like, oh, you know, I'm the only person going through this, or I'm the only person who feels this way. And I was very self-sabotaging and sort of like this victim mentality of, woe is me, like, you know, just super dramatic. But yeah, as you get to speak with other women who have been in these places as well, you find that it's actually very common. A lot of people have been through abuse. Like, I work a lot of market events, and I speak to people face to face.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:25:09]:

Most people who come up to my stand will say I've been in an abusive relationship, or my mother was, or my sister, or like someone that I know. It's very rare that I meet someone who doesn't know a woman who has gone through this. And it's so unfortunate that that's the reality. But in a way, the silver lining is that it connects us and it gives a sense of humanity to it where you're able to look at it through the lens of we are connected through this terrible thing, but we can, it means that we can also be stronger than what has beaten us down in the past.

Christopher [00:25:45]:

Yeah, the second poem that I chose sort of plays on that theme. It's Playing the Victim.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:25:50]:

I can read that one as well. This one was one of my favorites to write, actually, because I felt so strongly about it. Yeah, so here we go. So it's called Playing the Victim from Lipstick Saints in Coffee Cups.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:26:09]:

Shut the hell up, you scoffed. You always play the victim. Did it ever occur to you I'm not speaking for myself? Perhaps I'm speaking for every woman whose voice you sewn shut and shoved into the earth, trapped in your presence, smothered in bruises, terrified to make a sound for the backlash they'd receive. Find me a woman who escapes you unscathed, and I'll light my victim mentality up in flames.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:26:45]:

That one is a little more gruesome. For those of you who don't know me, the listeners, I actually am a very dark and twisted type of writer. I love writing about dark, twisted, disturbing blood, guts, and vultures. I find those kinds of metaphors paint a really good picture of what I was going through at the time. And so painting this picture, I imagined this graveyard of women just shoved underneath layers of dirt, you know, like, in someone's rose garden or something, and people walking by not knowing that this is what he's done. And yeah, the kind of metaphor was like, it's a man who's tending to his rose garden, but people walk by, and no one knows that there's just bodies underneath the ground of all of the victims. And I think even the word victim can also be, like, a trigger for some people because I never wanted to write the book and make it sound like I was like, oh, woe is me.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:27:37]:

I think I wanted to write it and just say, you know what? This is something that people need to acknowledge because I didn't acknowledge. I think the most victim I ever felt in the relationship was as soon as I was able to cut it off and be like, I'm done here. No more of this. That's when I felt incredibly empowered. And so it's more of a message to be like, I want to empower women to know that they can leave as well. Also, I want to shine a light on the fact that I'm no longer naive about what this person has the capability of doing to somebody else.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:28:13]:

Watching him do it, not only to me but to those two other women who I am now friends with, validated it in the way of, oh, I'm not crazy, I'm not delusional. This is someone who is, you know, mentally, he's not healthy. Going back to the man-bashing thing, it's in the poems, there's a lot of anger. But I do have a lot of empathy for him because I'm like, this is just someone who doesn't know how to treat people with respect. And also, maybe he didn't experience a lot of love in his life and maybe had a lot of childhood trauma. And he's showing up in a triggered state, in a fight-and-flight state, and in a state of survival mode. And so he doesn't know how to give love or how to receive love.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:28:53]:

And that took a long time for me to process. But learning that and realizing that, like, that's kind of the reality of the situation, it made it so much easier to work through, and for me to say, okay, I don't need to be a victim here. I don't want you to do this to anybody else. I should be able to speak about this in a clear way but also know that I'm not going to invite you back into my life because you're not a healthy person, and you should stay away from people who you're going to do that, too.

Christopher [00:29:23]:

So when did that switch flip in you where you came first, not the person you were involved with? Like, there has to be a flip at some point where you go; I am more important than this relationship.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:29:39]:

Oh, yeah, it was. It was a pretty intense moment in the relationship. So, the story behind it is that there was an under-arching theme. The scariest part of me leaving him was that he would always threaten to end his life, so he would always double down on suicide. And the fact that if I left him, he would end his life. And I really did not want to be held responsible for that. That was a massive amount of guilt that I carried with me. I also felt like I didn't want to abandon someone in their time of need because he was struggling.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:30:17]:

And so I stayed so much longer because I was like, well, if I leave, then he has no one, and I would rather stay and be miserable and support him than leave and potentially have a shot at being happy. Because at least if I stay, then at least I have him. Like, I was so deeply trauma bonded. But I remember the craziest part for me, where it switched, was he had basically spoken so many months and years of just saying he was a very miserable person. Like, he was fun and charismatic on the surface, but, like, once that kind of faded underneath, there was just this, like, immense pain and just immense disdain towards the world in general. Like, he hated the world.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:31:04]:

He hated everything. There was just a lot of being miserable and just a lot of negative energy that he had. I remember I knew that I needed to leave him. We had been fighting all week. I remember he was giving me the silent treatment for the past three days or something.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:31:26]:

It was nuts. The whole relationship was very tumultuous and always up and down. And I remember I had found out that he had been cheating on me. And I remember standing at the train station and thinking, like, you know what, I need to leave this relationship. I need to get out. But the thought of leaving him was too overwhelming. And so I remember the train came, and I had this very split-second moment where my brain said, just throw yourself in front of it. And I have never had a suicidal thought in my life, ever.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:32:02]:

I've always loved life. I've always had a zest for life. And the train obviously passed. And I remember thinking, I just. I broke down into tears. Like, I was just, like, hysterical because I was like, I can't believe that my brain has now thought that, like, my life is not worth living because this person has beaten me down to the point that I. That I genuinely believe that. And I felt so far removed from who I actually was.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:32:28]:

I felt like I was turning into him. And I knew that he was not a safe person to be around. Like, I knew he was dangerous, and I knew that he was just bad. Even though I was with him, I was like, this is not a good person. I don't feel safe here. And then that also made me feel like I wasn't safe with myself. And I was like, okay, enough is enough. And I ended up walking to his house, and he had given me a knife. He used to slice his arms open with knives. And he had given me the knife that he had used to slice his arms open. And he said, as long as you have this knife, like, I will never hurt you. I will never hurt myself. I'll never. And at that point, he had already hurt me multiple times. He'd already lied and cheated and manipulated, and the hurt and the pain was already there.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:33:15]:

So at this point, I was like, you've already hurt me, so after that situation with the train, I walked to his house, and I gave him back his knife. Like, I didn't even say anything. I didn't even have a speech or anything planned. I was like, I don't even think it deserves it. I didn't need to come in there, yelling and screaming because I was like, at this point, he's not even worth the conversation because any conversation with him always turns into, like, more abuse, more lies, more manipulation.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:33:47]:

And I was like, he's not even worth the energy. I'm like, just drop the knife down and just get out of there. And so I walked into his house. He kept his door unlocked at the time. I walked up to his room; he was playing video games, and I literally had the knife, and I dropped it down on the keyboard, and I walked out of the house.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:33:59]:

And I felt like the minute that I walked out of the door, I just felt this wave of relief being like, oh, my goodness, this is done. You know, it just felt so. And what's crazy is that the whole relationship, I had been crying. For months, days, weeks, and years on end, just constantly crying, constantly confused. And I remember after the relationship ended, like, that day, like, obviously the tears came afterward, but that day that I had left him, I didn't shed a single tear. I was so shocked.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:34:41]:

I was like, why am I not crying over this? But it was almost like the adrenaline of you finally severed the cord from this person who has put you down for so long. And he tried, he, I knew that it wasn't really letting me go without a fight. So even after I had left the house, he came running out after me. And I turned around because I heard his footsteps, and his face was completely white. It looked like he had seen a ghost.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:35:09]:

And he looked like he was just so stunned. I think he didn't expect me to do that because it was the first time in my life that I was finally taking a stand after years and years of being a doormat to this person. And he starts with, you know. I talk about it in the book, where he basically threw together an apology, which sounded like he had thrown together Scrabble pieces. He sort of started blubbering, like, whatever he could. He's like, oh. I'm like, it just sounded like gibberish.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:35:36]:

She's just like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And I was so firm in this. And I turned around, and I said to him, I said, what are you sorry for? He's like, oh, I'm sorry for spending time with her. And I was like, what else?

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:35:50]:

And in that moment, I was like, oh, my God, I am being such a bitch. I'm being a bitch right now. I was like, this is my moment. You know what I mean? I was like, here we are. I was like, here we go. And then I remember he was like, I'm sorry. And then I was like, what else? And then he said something else, and I was like, what else? And I was just kind of going after him.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:36:08]:

I felt crazy in that moment. It felt like an out-of-body experience. Honestly, I was like, I have never behaved like this before, but it was just so much anger and resentment of, he doesn't know the backstory of a couple hours prior, I literally was almost throwing my, or, thought of throwing myself in front of a train because of him. And I was like, I am not doing this anymore.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:36:30]:

I'm not allowing someone to treat me like this. And I remember I said to him, I was like, you know what? Whatever happens with her, by all means, like, go ahead, be my guest, because I am done. And I said to him, I'm like, you are an emotionally abusive person. I said that right to his face. And it was the acknowledgment of realizing who he was and what he had put me through. And I was like, the gloves are off now. Like, there's no turning back.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:36:55]:

And I think, at that moment, I can't remember, but it was, I think he had said, even after saying that, he was like, well, you haven't even been here. This was after him giving me three days of silent treatment. He goes to me at this moment and says, you haven't even been here. And in that moment, I knew that he was trying to get my blood to boil.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:37:19]:

He was trying to get a reaction out of me. And I just looked at him, and I was like, I am done discussing this. And I walked away. And I just walked. I was done discussing this. I was like, I'm not gonna give you the validation of me giving you an emotional reaction because that's what you want. And so I walked away, and it was done.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:37:41]:

I mean, the relationship was still a little bit messy because he also owed me a lot of money. So I walked away. I ended up getting a civil claim against him, and I filed a civil claim. I froze his bank account, and I garnished his wages for about a year and a half until all of the money was paid back in full. I blocked him on all platforms, so he had no way to contact me except through the bank payments. We were just communicating through the bank and through the civil claim. And then I ended up writing a book about it. So I'm sure now he probably does think of me as like, oh, that's some crazy bitch that I dated. But I'm like, I would rather be seen as a crazy bitch than to be seen as a doormat.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:38:23]:

So, Mic drop.

Christopher [00:38:28]:

I listen to this, and I think it comes to me that this was the day that you found Jamie Louise Madigan. Yeah, that was the day you found you.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:38:39]:

It was very empowering to where I was like, all right, I'm coming back to my roots now. I was like, I'm back to my roots. I'm back to who I need to be. No more of this. Since then, I have actually never dated anyone who has been abusive to me since then. Because I think the situation was so traumatizing. I just told myself, I was like, you are never doing this again.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:39:00]:

I'm like, this was too much for your brain and for your mental, physical, and emotional health. We're not ever doing this again. And, yeah, that was like my little pep talk, and I've stuck with that.

Christopher [00:39:11]:

So the sad part about this is that maybe without that experience, you wouldn't be as stern and as confident and as boundary-laden as you are today.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:39:22]:

I do think of that. Like, I wonder. I almost wonder who I would have been if it had never happened. It makes me really wonder what would Jamie have been like prior to this situation. Would I have maybe stayed the same? Would I have had this poetry career? Where would my life have taken me? And so it's always a fun game of choosing your own adventure book or what would have happened. But I'm honestly actually grateful for the way it happened because I feel like it's given me a good sense of confidence, being clear in what I want, and also just not putting up with anyone's nonsense. Like, my ability to cut off nonsense is so quick now that I would rather be alone now, like I would choose to be alone for the rest of my life than to be miserable in someone's company or not even miserable or even be in the wrong relationship with someone that I know is not right for me. So that's my standard now.

Christopher [00:40:17]:

So, for others to gain some of your knowledge and some of your wisdom, and find this book, tell us about where they can find it.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:40:28]:

Yeah, so the book is called Lipstick Stains and Coffee Cups. It is available directly on my website at the moment. That's my main funnel that I'm using. I have a Shopify page set up there. I will hopefully be getting it on Amazon and other platforms shortly in the New Year, so keep an eye out for that. But right now, the main place to purchase it is just through my website, jamielouisemadigan.com. I'm also pretty active on Instagram. It's the main platform that I follow. All of my socials are on my website.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:41:00]:

If you live in Calgary, it is available in quite a lot of the Calgary Indigos and a couple of the independent bookstores as well.

Christopher [00:41:07]:

Tremendous. It's funny how people come into your life just walking around a women's show, and there you were with, with your book, and it just resonated with me the moment that I saw what the topic was about and what you had gone through in order to create this book. I'm so glad that you agreed to stay in touch because that was a long time ago.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:41:31]:

It was.

Christopher [00:41:31]:

And that you came on, especially at this period when we're talking about these topics that are so critically important to talk about and share. And I'm so happy that you've had the courage to expose and be so vulnerable with what you've gone through. So thank you so much for that, and thank you so much for being here.

Jamie Louise Madigan [00:41:52]:

Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Christopher [00:41:55]:

So did I. Very, very much. Sorry we missed Heather today, but she's wrapped up in doing other things, so I'll have to do the full closure myself. You've been listening to the Virgin, the Beauty, and the Bitch. Find us. Like us. Share us. Come on back. We're going to have more of these conversations next week to become a partner in the VBB community.

Christopher [00:42:15]:

We invite you to find us at Virgin Beauty Bitch. Like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are defiantly different, like you. Until next time. Thanks for listening.