VBB 296: The Modern Woman’s Ideal Man!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

Okay, so we're going old-school, back to the old days when VBB was Heather and me just riffing on a juicy topic. Today, we're going to talk about men, particularly how men these days feel they can't do right for being wrong all the time. Chivalry seems to have been reduced to chauvinist, and paying even a sincere compliment can be interpreted as an assault. And yes, it's the behavior of some men that have created these reservations for women. But with that in mind, we ask this question from a woman's perspective. What's an ideal man? Or what do women want from men these days? Granted, it's a very broad question, and no one man will ever be ideal for every woman, but I believe there are some universal qualities that women feel are reasonable to expect from the men in their lives. So what say ye, Heather? What makes for an ideal man?

Heather [00:01:27]:

It brings me back to that movie, all the way back when, What Women Want. Because clearly, there's not just one answer. And I know that there's such a wide array of how women feel about this question, but I'm going to speak from my heart and the conversations that I've had, everything with my closest friends to in the girl's bathroom at clubs, because that's when all the juicy combos.

Christopher [00:02:00]:

Do tell, do tell.

Heather [00:02:04]:

I'll start with what I feel are the less controversial parts and then move more into the more controversial ones. I would say that today's woman is looking for a man, whether you're already in a relationship or in a situationship the foundation of it is to feel really seen and appreciated for the things they do for others. And that shows up in a lot of different ways in intimate relationships. So I would say definitely because, you know, more traditional forms of female or expectations have been domestically geared, that, like, the foundation is to be able to be seen for what you're giving, for taking care of the home, the food that you're cooking, and if there are kids involved, that you're thinking about the doctor's appointment and what's for lunch and all of the things, like is the milk running low, do we need more soap? All of those things that feel that they just show up sometimes are because there's often a woman that's been almost groomed to be looking at those things. Women thinking of what's ahead for the day, for the week, or the month. Women that I've talked to like to feel a sincere appreciation,  independent of how much they expect their partner to give at home. The appreciation seems to be withstanding across all kinds of relationships.

Heather [00:03:50]:

And I'm not just talking a cute little thank you, although that is helpful, but if you're really noticing what she's bringing to the table and then meet her halfway or, let's say, all the way with a way that you want to show her that she's cherished. So whatever that love language is for her, that you're listening to what she needs to feel like she's actually appreciated, rather than a quick thank you. Maybe that's going out to see her favorite show in town, knowing the kind of music she likes, getting her tickets to her favorite artist, or noticing something about her that she would love and do that for her. Like, that means everything to us. Then, to bridge from that concept, I would say that a lot of women in today's world, because of the double shift that the women's movements have been talking about for so long, like being in the paid workforce and then also being expected to do a lot at home. The more that their significant other takes things off of their plate when it comes to domestic responsibilities, not only is it a loving gesture when you care about her, but I think it's really sexy.

Heather [00:05:19]:

I've talked with some feminists who believe that it should be the expectation that people are 50-50, whatever you want to call that, or whatever that looks like in your home. I think most people realize that 50-50 is not just straight down the middle of certain responsibilities, but how you can show up as 100% in certain areas, and the other person takes over in other areas. As a blanket statement, I would say that when that kind of care is provided in the home, it feels good for everyone. Like, coming home to a cooked meal, coming home to, you know, I'll just lay it out because, you know, the sheets were washed, the bed was made, and things were taken care of. I guess it's a very long list of domestic responsibilities that feel unsexy, but when you do them, it feels really, really, really sexy to us.

Christopher [00:06:14]:

So I was going to say there used to be this image of sexy as the man in uniform. Right? Nice, smart, pressed, clean uniform. Now it's a man in an apron? Is that what we're talking about?

Heather [00:06:31]:

I mean, both sound good. Maybe him in like a camo apron with like a badge or something.

Christopher [00:06:46]:

Okay.

Heather [00:06:48]:

And, oh, I, you know, and again, for some women, this is really not what they want. Like, they do want more of the traditional home and the traditional masculinity. I think the comments that I said previously in the ways that you can make her feel really appreciated are more of the foundational piece than what is so special to each couple. And in return, she makes you feel special. It's not just a one-way street. I actually saw a video today of this women's camp, and it's letting out some of the frustrations with the ways women feel that their husbands or partners have not appreciated what they do day in and day out. And, oh, it is quite the video.

Heather [00:07:42]:

They are letting out a lot of frustration. So, appreciation seems to be a huge deal. I mean, that's true in the workforce, that's true in relationships that are friendships, that when you feel like the time and investment that you've given is really seen and noticed and cherished, it goes a long way when you're willing to give a lot.

Christopher [00:08:03]:

I would add one caveat, and it's that all of that praise or all of that acknowledgment can fall short if you don't feel the same about yourself. Someone can heap praise upon you about how wonderful you are, but if you don't feel that way about yourself, it rings hollow. So there's a starting point with the person, with the individual that can then accept and acknowledge and appreciate someone who is doing these things, to acknowledge her and what it is she brings to the table. There's a two-way street there.

I was reading this article. Do you have something to write with there? I'll give you these. You can tell me in what order you would place them.

Heather [00:08:49]:

Okay.

Christopher [00:08:50]:

Okay, ready? There are eleven of them.

Heather [00:08:54]:

Okay, I'm ready, I think.

Christopher [00:08:57]:

So there's empathy, and these are all related to the original question of what women want from a good man. So empathy is one of them. Reliability, confidence, accountability, emotional safety, integrity, communication, respect, thoughtfulness, humor and ambition. So, looking at those, how would you rate them?

Heather [00:09:36]:

It is quite the list, that's for sure. I mean, in the conversations I've had with women, I would say that thoughtfulness goes the longest way because other aspects of what's been outlined can be brought into that.

Christopher [00:09:53]:

So, thoughtfulness is an umbrella?

Heather [00:09:55]:

Yeah, exactly.

Christopher [00:09:58]:

And the others are spokes in the umbrella?

Heather [00:10:00]:

Mm hmm.

Christopher [00:10:01]:

I like it. What's the handle?

Heather [00:10:06]:

Ooh, that's a good one. Something she can grasp onto in a lot of ways. When I read over the list that you just commented on, and I've said this to a lot of my guy friends as well, in the ways that I think men expect a lot of women, we also expect a lot of them. Because I've been in same-sex relationships as well as the opposite sex, if you want to call it that, I will say that when you're the one who's a, I guess, more expected within that relationship, and I would say for men in society to be the one taking care of the situation or stepping up in an emergency or the one who's supposed to take care of not only themselves but the other person, that at the end of the day, it is frickin draining and exhausting to have the ambition and the confidence and the worthiness and reliability and accountability. I think that for all genders, this list, as a personal point of reflection of how we're showing up in relationships, makes for better partnerships and intimate relationships. And other kind of relationships. With the healthiest relationships, I've seen both people really take on all of these elements in order to not allow one person to be drained and to also see each other's growth as fundamental to the trajectory as individuals and as a couple.

Heather [00:11:52]:

But to come back to your question, because it was so juicy and fun, not trying to skirt that. So, the handle, I guess, when it comes to what's sexy in a guy, if it's something to hold on to, I would go with confidence, ambition, that being able to take charge of a situation or feel like they could protect you emotionally, physically, psychologically. I feel like it's a big turn-on for women. Maybe not necessarily the foundations of a healthy relationship, but a huge attraction piece. And I would say even in my friendships, somebody who would go to bat for you if somebody's talking shit about you, like what people say about you when you're not around and the way that you show up for people. I take that very seriously in my relationships and what I say about others when they're not around. I think hard about what I say about other people because that's showing respect to those you love.

Christopher [00:13:01]:

As you know, that is my number one power word: respect. I think a lot of things start with respect and branch out from there. Self-respect is number one, and then being rewarded with respect for the way that you behave and the way that you care about other people or carry yourself around other people. It is something that you've earned by the way that you are. It's given as something that is precious. If someone respects you, it's a precious gift that they give you. But as I said before, you have to first respect yourself and what you have to offer the world. To me, that's the handle in a lot of cases.

Christopher [00:13:56]:

I definitely resonate with that word big time.

Heather [00:14:02]:

Christopher, I've so enjoyed our conversations and the way that we've outlined that as a foundational piece of what it means to move forward in humanity and get to a better page. It's like the absolute foundation and the pillars; everything else is above that.

Christopher [00:14:27]:

An important part of respect that we don't necessarily weave into the word is empathy. It is to understand or do your best to understand the person's perspective that you're looking at or dealing with or in a relationship with. It's to understand what their world is like from their perspective, and to feel that, and then reach out and communicate in a way that touches how they see the world. To be able to communicate and resonate with what they're feeling and what they've experienced. Like man to woman, knowing women have a different experience of the world than men. It's to be able to reach out as a man and understand, learn, listen to what women say to you about their experience in the world, and then being able to empathize with that, to understand that from your perspective and be able then to make that connection, use that empathy as a connecting point between people.

Heather [00:15:36]:

That's a really powerful way to weave in one of the elements you outlined in that list. I'm really curious to know, Christopher, from a man's perspective, what would you say men are contemplating themselves on how they would like to show up as a good partner in today's world? Like, what do you think is on the minds of men in today's world?

Christopher [00:16:03]:

I think a lot of men are left in a space of confusion because the world seems so hostile against them. Even great men, good men, and men with pure intentions and good hearts seem to be all lumped into this category of toxic. So how do you crawl out of that as yourself and make yourself known as someone who is sensitive to the world around them, someone who is not completely wrapped up in their privileges and the things that the world gives men on a silver platter that women do not have access to? In a lot of cases, there are a lot of great men out there, but unfortunately, in this world, we have to lump everything into a big pile, and everybody wears the same stain on their personality. So, I think for men, it's exactly the same as what women want from men. It's that understanding of the individual.

Christopher [00:17:07]:

Who is this individual? How is he behaving in my world, in my orbit? Is he a good person? Can I actually trust him? Not men in general, but this person, this one person, this friend, this lover, whatever it might be, this father, whatever it might be, brother, doesn't matter. It's about that individual being seen as an individual, as being a good person and valuing that. And as you said, with women wanting that reflection back to them, I think men can use that as well. A reflection back to what it is he brings to the table that you value reflects back as well.

Heather [00:17:53]:

It's really like it. It means a lot to me to hear your perspective because in the relationships that I've been in and, you know, relationships with people in my life, that from both men, women, and nonbinary people, where things seem to really fall apart is when what they bring to the table hasn't been honored or considered or, I guess, celebrated. And I think that for so long, the work that women have done has been so undervalued or undermined or just not even noticed at all when it is a tremendous amount of work that it almost feels like collectively, as women, we're hungrier. We're hungry to feel something that has been dismissed for so long. Not that a lot of us would want to admit that, but there is this yearning, and I think it's valid to have this age-old amount of work be finally recognized. And that's led to some of the frustration that I see with men. It's like, okay, you know, I understand that as a man - if I can step into those shoes for a second - I know that my place of power and privilege has granted me a lot of access to many things, and in today's world, my guy friends, they celebrate that women have more access to opportunity, education, promotions, and that it's not even, that the gender gap still exists. And these good guys really do recognize that it's still not even. They're not trying to paint the picture that it's not even, but they're still trying to paint the picture that they love what they bring to the people and should be celebrated.

Heather [00:19:56]:

I'm not trying to discount how long a certain time of work, predominantly domestic work, has been almost invisible to most of us, but at the same time, bringing that into visibility is why we're seeing more genders take on.

Christopher [00:20:15]:

Why are they completely disengaging from what we call gender? Because gender has become an expectation. It is not valued. As someone bringing this to my family, this is your role. This is what you're supposed to do. So why do I need to give you any praise for that? That's what you're supposed to do. It's like going to work for someone who doesn't appreciate you, and you bust your butt every day, in and out, doing whatever you can to make the best of the role that you have, but it's not appreciated.

Christopher [00:20:55]:

Eventually, guess what? You're going to be dissatisfied with the effort. And what's coming back is not even scratching the surface to let you know that you're appreciated. That's what the roles of gender have become, both for women and for men. Women also don't necessarily appreciate as much of what men bring to the table as men don't appreciate as much what women bring to the table because these are roles you're supposed to play. That's your job. That's your role. Get on with it.

Heather [00:21:31]:

It's so true. I feel that people completely fall into the expectation of gender and then alongside expectation. It's like, okay, you're just doing what you're supposed to do for the very traditional entrenched men and women—expectations, and then the gratitude for what both of those things have been going out the window.

Christopher [00:21:56]:

What, do you want a medal for that? Like, come on, right?

Heather [00:21:59]:

You're just doing what you're supposed to do. You're going to work every day. Oh, good for you. That's what you're supposed to do as a man. Or, oh, you're home with the kid all day. Like, that sounds so easy. Not easy.

Christopher [00:22:15]:

As I said, we've lost our sensitivity to empathy. We've lost the ability to understand and appreciate what the other person is doing, which makes our lives whole.

Heather [00:22:32]:

It's funny because when I talk to Gen Z, it's interesting to see what's happening. I talk with these younger generations of women, they. How do I frame this? They expect that they can just. Hmm. They want some of the traditional ways of seeing relationships, and at the same time, relationships have ultimately evolved quite a bit. This is something of a conundrum for me. Where do we place financial wherewithal or financial care when more and more women are in the workforce, and some are making more than the men in their lives?

Heather [00:23:28]:

For a lot of the Gen Zers and even Millennials I talk to, the expectation for dates is still that the men should pay. It's almost a blanket statement. I think there's a lot of psychological underpinnings to wanting to feel like your partner is financially stable. So, if you were to get pregnant, you could have that time off and still be cared for financially, and you could survive. There's a part of your animalistic brain that's thinking deep down. That's one part of it. Other times, people are just looking for a free meal ticket. I'm not naive to the fact that that exists, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Christopher.

Heather [00:24:12]:

Like, when it comes to paying for a date, what do you think in the world that we're living in today?

Christopher [00:24:19]:

I think that the way we have grown up, there are traditions, whether or not the modern-day atmosphere supports them wholeheartedly; hopefully, as you say, women are far more stable than they were in your mother's generation as far as finance is concerned. But there is a psychological message being sent back and forth between these two people. When we hang on to these traditions that seem outdated, outmoded, and unnecessary, there's something that is still being communicated on a level that you don't really necessarily need to talk about, of expectations from each other, things that men expect from women and women expect from men. And this stability, this strength peace that you say is to have someone there that speaks for you when others speak badly of you behind your back. These are all measures of the strength a woman expects from a man in her life. And, yeah, paying on the first date is part of that.

Christopher [00:25:35]:

It's not a test. However, it is something that has a check. Check or an x.

Heather [00:25:50]:

I know, I think you said that just so beautifully because I wrestle with this a lot to try to come from a place of fairness, but it is something that psychologically, it's like an indication of how are you going to be able to take care of me? And I think that men look at how are you going to take care of me in other ways. Right. It's a different back-and-forth. Something that comes to mind also is there just clearly is such a difference to sexuality when it comes to a heterosexual relationship. I am the poster child of believing in women's sexual empowerment and autonomy and owning her sexuality and what that looks like for herself as her own person. That is something that's fundamentally important to me as a human being and as a woman, and what I share with my friends. But the risk of being in a female body when it comes to being able to get pregnant with how much more susceptible we are to STDs and all of the things that come along with being the receivers of bodily fluids creates a very different reality for what we're looking for.

Heather [00:27:16]:

When it comes down to all these indications of if I'm going to be making myself vulnerable to you in just the biological aspect of sex in a heterosexual relationship, these are the considerations that are happening when we're in the dating world.

Christopher [00:27:33]:

Couple that or add on family. Who knows, down the road, can this person be trusted to take care of all of us if it comes down to that? So these little tiny tests along the way are adding up to a bigger picture down the road. Obviously, not every man you date is one you're going to marry. However, there is that list under the table to fill out.

Heather [00:28:13]:

Whether either person wants to admit to it or nothing, right?

Christopher [00:28:20]:

That's fundamentally human. You know what, animals do the same thing. A female, a lioness, is courted by several lions. She is looking for something specific before she makes her choice. She has her checklist, too.

Heather [00:28:51]:

A lot of the females in nature do. You know, we have to be wooed to say, I'm going to go through it all, I'm going to go through the body changes, I'm going to go through the risk of dying giving birth. There's so much to consider that if I'm going to choose to do it, I'm going to take my best shot at you protecting me and these offsprings as long as you don't eat them. Because sometimes it happens in the natural world. I want you to be strong but don't eat the kids, which is why she needs to be fierce herself.

Christopher [00:29:31]:

Mama bear, absolutely. So, we started this conversation with what women are looking for in men these days. It truly is not a clear, straight road. There are many zigs and zags, and every woman, every individual, has their own curves that can throw things left or right or off the track as far as a man is concerned.

Heather [00:30:02]:

But it's interesting that our curves can get you off track.

Christopher [00:30:13]:

Yes, they can.

Heather [00:30:14]:

They can.

Christopher [00:30:16]:

Right. But it's like I said, there are universal things that I think are non-negotiable if you respect yourself and know what it is that you need in a relationship with another human being. It's having confidence in yourself to make that decision and not to be coerced off track.

Heather [00:30:48]:

I love that you brought it full circle because no matter what gender you are, you really understand that aspect. It's like you said, unless you have worked on yourself to be able to receive love or appreciation, you know, it's just like a bottomless pit.

Christopher [00:31:09]:

So it rings hollow. It doesn't land anywhere with you.

Heather [00:31:15]:

Because deep down, you don't agree with it. Right. You don't believe that it's true for yourself.

Christopher [00:31:20]:

Yes. Self work.

Heather [00:31:26]:

The ongoing journey.

Christopher [00:31:33]:

I hope what we bring to the table is the awareness of the need to look at yourself, not just the world around you and how it affects you, but yourself and what you are bringing into it.

Heather [00:31:49]:

The space and celebrating that?

Christopher [00:31:53]:

Yes.

Heather [00:31:53]:

Well, there you have it, folks. You know, the ideal man in a nutshell.

Christopher [00:31:59]:

Here's an umbrella with a really sturdy handle.

Heather [00:32:02]:

Right. A really good wood handle.

Christopher [00:32:11]:

Well, it's great to have these one-on-ones every once in a while.

Heather [00:32:16]:

It really is. It's really nice. It takes me back to the good old days. But not to say that I get so much out of each and every guest. But on this note, I would love to hear from our audience about their thoughts on "quote-unquote," the ideal man in 2024 in today's modern era. You know, if it resonates with you, or if it doesn't. If you're adamantly opposed to something we've said, we would love to hear it. I get so much out of understanding where people are at.

Christopher [00:32:53]:

You can reach us on our website, virginbeautybitch.com. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, lots of ways to send us your feedback. And we're always appreciative of hearing what is resonating out into the world. So thank you. And you have been listening to the.

Heather [00:33:18]:

Virgin, the Beauty, and the Bitch.

Christopher [00:33:21]:

Find us! Like us! Share us! To become a partner in the VBB community, we invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com. like us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. And share us with people who are Defiantly Different like you.

Until next time, thanks for listening.