VBB 293 Vicki Larson — Living Apart Together: Choices and Challenges in Modern Relationships!

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast, inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather. Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

I love you, but I don't want to live with you. If your intimate partner were to say those words to you, how would you feel? How would you react? Would it be with anger, or would it be with relief? And if relief isn't an emotion you would even consider appropriate for the situation, you might surprise yourself after our conversation. Today, we welcome award-winning journalist, author, writer, columnist, editor, and freelancer Vicky Larson to Virgin Beauty. Bitch, welcome.

Vicki Larson [00:00:57]:

Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be here.

Christopher [00:01:01]:

We are absolutely privileged to have you, Vicki. Now, you specialize in writing about lifestyle and human relations, but with a modern twist, I would say. Yeah, you highlight living and loving outside of conventional modes and models of marriage and the nuclear families. Strong evidence of that is in your new book title, LATitude, How You Can Make a Live-Apart-Together Relationship Work. But before we get into your writing, I'm curious to learn about your family history. I assume you grew up in a nuclear home, mom and dad, little ones, in a little comfy bungalow somewhere.

Vicki Larson [00:01:37]:

Well, I did. I grew up in Queens, New York, Whitestone, Queens, which I understand now is very hip. It was not hip when I was growing up. Manhattan was where you wanted to be. And yes, I had your very traditional suburban family with a fifties-era stay-at-home mom and a dad who, you know, went out to work. He was a mechanical engineer and my sister and me and yes, very, very traditional nuclear family. But a twist is that when my sister and I left the family home, my mom left my dad and moved to Miami, where my sister was living, bought herself a condo, got herself a job, and lived apart from my dad for about ten years. And my dad would come down once a month with Teddy, our little Yorkie, and they would have a long weekend.

Vicki Larson [00:02:38]:

And they did that. Yeah, until he retired and his mom died. And so my mom was a model for me, but I wasn't paying attention at that point. I was. Well, I followed a boyfriend out to Colorado and dropped out of college to be with him. And then I married him. So, I wasn't paying attention to what my parents were doing. But later, when I got divorced for the second time, I was like, Mom, what the actual hell was that? And she said I had enough.

Vicki Larson [00:03:12]:

And after years of being a wife and mother myself, I kind of understood.

Christopher [00:03:18]:

What she meant for us guys who don't get it. What does enough mean when a woman says I had enough.

Vicki Larson [00:03:24]:

Well, you know, what's interesting is that. So, my mom was a Holocaust survivor. She was born in Romania. So she was in concentration camps from age twelve to 16, and then was orphaned and went to an orphan camp, and then went to go live with an aunt, and then went to go live with another aunt, met my dad, and married him. And she'd never lived alone. She never experienced anything other than wife and motherhood. And, you know, her just very disruptive childhood. And, you know, I don't think she knew she had options of ways to live and be.

Vicki Larson [00:04:05]:

This is just what women did. And I think, you know, the whole thing about the feminine mystique and everything about women of that generation, but also men were also boxed in, too. I think that men had to play that role, too. So they were living out what society kind of dictated for them. I think if my father. Both my parents have passed now, but I think if my dad was a young man today, there's no way he would have gotten married and have kids. And don't get me wrong, he loved my mother, and he loved my sister and me, but I think, you know, he would have followed a different path. It's just things were limited, and so they lived out that kind of traditional nuclear family thing, which I think is hard for people, especially, you know, when people talk about going back to when America was great.

Vicki Larson [00:05:04]:

First of all, it wasn't great for everybody. It was great if you were a white dude, okay? But, you know, there it was. That nuclear thing was a blip. Mostly people lived in multigenerational housing. And back in, you know, going back to the hunter-gatherer days, it was our parenting. People had help raising their children and helping to care for each other. And we have taken this. We can do it by ourselves to an extreme, and actually, we can't do it by ourselves.

Vicki Larson [00:05:41]:

And so my dad did what a man thought he was supposed to do, and my mom did what she thought a woman was supposed to do. And now it's different ish. Maybe not for everybody. Not for the tradwives. Let's not go there.

Heather [00:06:07]:

So I'm interested to hear how you continue down this line of, you know, kind of, well, witnessing this as you were growing up, but, you know, of course, being immersed in where your own life was heading and the own. Your own excitement of your own relationships. So considering the traditional nuclear family and ultimately how, yeah, as you've said, how prescriptive it was, can you kind of bridge us into your understanding of really, you know, loving and being devoted to somebody, but not necessarily wanting to cohabitate.

Vicki Larson [00:06:46]:

Well, okay. So the funny thing is, despite having my mother as a role model, like I said, I had two traditional marriages, right? I married my first husband a few months before my 21st birthday because I was stupid. Even though he's a lovely person, that marriage didn't last very long. It's a starter marriage. And then I married my second husband when I was 32 and then had two children with him. So, I followed that romantic script that we all know. You meet someone, you date, you fall in love, you become a monogamous couple, you live together, you put a ring on it. There's kids, a house if you're lucky, and, for some reason, there's a minivan at some point.

Vicki Larson [00:07:33]:

And so it really wasn't until I got divorced the second time that I had that heart-to-heart with my mom and asked her, what the hell? And when she said I had enough, I knew kind of what she was saying because I felt like I had given up a lot of myself in my second marriage. It's not like he asked me to, but I did work part-time. We wanted someone to be at home to raise the kids. I made much less than he did, and it made sense. So we followed along those traditional things, but all I ever knew was that script. And so when he and I divorced, and I had my first big, deep romantic relationship after that divorce, and our kids were young, and I didn't want to try to meld it, but I always assumed we would live together. And whenever I brought it up, he'd be like, well, seems vague.

Vicki Larson [00:08:31]:

And then I would be sad because I was like, he doesn't love me, you know? And then I'd ask again in a year, like, do you think we'll ever live together? When the kid. And he'd be vague, and then I'd be sad. And then, I started to realize how much I liked living alone. So I came into this like, I was pushed into it. It was like I was the accidental live apart together person because I really thought at some point we would live together. But my former husband and I had 50-50 joint physical custody, so my kids were with their dad for a week, and then they'd come to me, and that week that they were with their dad was like, the first time I really had freedom in a really long time. We were married for 16 years, and I thought, wow, I could do whatever I want, and I don't have to ask somebody, can I do this, or should I? Can we do that?

Vicki Larson [00:09:32]:

I just, like, could do whatever I wanted. So that's when I really started to delve into romantic relationships. Marriage, divorce, love, what it looks like, what it could look like. I started doing a lot of reading myself and exploring what, you know, is this really what we want? Like, if we knew that there were other options. And so I started writing for the Huffington Post. Had a divorce section then, and I was writing a lot about divorce. And, you know, there's been some divorce memoirs this year and really talking about how wonderful divorce can be. And I will tell you this.

Vicki Larson [00:10:16]:

If I had not gotten divorced the second time, I don't think I would have been an author. I don't think I would have written a book. It's only because I started to really explore marriage, divorce, and romantic relationships that my mind was, like, opened, and so I fell into Live-Apart-Together. Quite honestly, it was not at first a choice, and now it is. Although I'm not saying that I would never live with anybody again, but we're gonna be having a lot of conversations and being very intentional about what we do with our time together, and allowing each other to have the freedom to be our best selves.

Christopher [00:11:06]:

On this podcast. We talk a lot about women finding themselves. And it sounds to me that that way that your life worked out, you had room and space to find yourself. And actually, when you found yourself, you actually fell in love with yourself and wanted to protect that love for yourself. So this living apart is part of just you finding yourself. Does that sound real?

Vicki Larson [00:11:40]:

Well, yes, that does sound real. And I will say that the lifestyle choice is mostly driven by women. And so it's very popular with women around my age. So I, as I say, I'm in my sixties and I'm divorced. So a lot of women who have done the traditional marriage thing and maybe raised kids and did all the caregiving and all the labor and all of this and that, they're, like, been there, done that. And when they get divorced or are widowed, a lot of them, like me, do want to have romantic love again, but they don't want to replicate what they had. For many women, living apart together is a way to undo gender because we can be together and we can plan our time together. But I don't care about your messy house.

Vicki Larson [00:12:44]:

I don't have to live with it, and you don't.  I'm a pile maker, okay? This is confession time. Well, I'm better at it now, but I was a really good pile maker in my married days, and it drove my husband crazy. And so, like, if we had lived apart, like, my piles would be like, yeah, that's her shit. That's her thing. I don't have to deal with that. So, a lot of women really do.

Vicki Larson [00:13:11]:

A lot of older women, widowed or divorced, really do like this lifestyle. And it's also very popular with women who have children from a previous relationship who don't want to. Like, I didn't want to bring in a new father. You know, try to create, recreate some Brady bunch kind of, you know, mash it all together. It doesn't always work well, and it adds a lot of strain to the relationship, which it doesn't have to if you're not sharing the same roof, you know, you're not living under the same roof. So yes, for many women who feel like they've lost a part of themselves in their romantic relationship and marriage, or even if you're not married, this is a way to really honor yourself and also the couplehood because you don't fight as much over the things that couples often fight about. And look, we saw during the past few years, with the pandemic and the lockdowns and people, if you were so lucky, and not everybody was able to work from home, there were a lot of people who did not.

Vicki Larson [00:14:27]:

For the lucky people who were able to work from home, being 24/7 with your spouse or your partner and your children, if you have them, I mean, wow, was that hard.

Heather [00:14:43]:

Right?

Vicki Larson [00:14:45]:

Yeah. And what's so interesting about that experience is so, so some people really had to be apart from their loved ones, maybe because they were frontline workers and they were exposed to COVID patients and maybe didn't want to bring that into their home. Or maybe they got Covid and had to separate from their family members for a while. A lot of people in that situation realized, like, oh, wow, wait a minute. This was, this is nice. I mean, I'm sick, and I don't want to be sick. And maybe you're missing your loved ones, but missing your loved ones is actually not so bad because you appreciate them as opposed to just being around them all the time. It's okay to miss somebody, because when you miss someone, you're thinking about all the things that you love about them, all their good points, you're not thinking about, I miss them.

Vicki Larson [00:15:47]:

I even miss, you know, when he leaves the toothpaste cap off. I mean, you're not thinking of the things that bother you when you're living with them. You're actually actually, you kind of are idealizing them, which sounds like, well, that's a fantasy world, but it's not. You're seeing the things that you love about them, which it's easy to forget when you're living with someone all the time.

Christopher [00:16:12]:

So absence makes the heart...

Vicki Larson [00:16:14]:

Yeah. Grow fonder.  And it's also great for sex, if I may say so.

Heather [00:16:26]:

I can certainly appreciate that with how much of the domestic responsibilities have fell on women-identifying people for so long that when at a place financially, that you're able to facilitate this, that it can be very freeing and very just kind of, as you've said, like stepping into perhaps after a lifetime of having to live for the needs of your kids or feeling that you need to live for the needs of your partner, to have a time where you get to beat your own drum completely, you know, when it comes to your space and your own sense of self. Like, something that Christopher and I have talked about is, you know, it's only pretty recently that I had the opportunity to not be living with roommates or with a significant other. And it's been life-changing to really have a space that you design for yourself. And as you said, you get to really, like, sing to the beat of your own drum or dance to the beat of your own drum. And you know how important, I feel like, at whatever stage in life that you're able to do that, that you get to know your sense of self in a way that's, like, really special, I think, for how a soul can develop in this lifetime. I don't want to leave people who are our listeners that if you are cohabitating or you're in a financial position, that that's just the requirement of your life, that you can't carve out that space. Because I think there's ways to get creative or ask your partner or the people that you're living with for a certain amount of time or just kind of set boundaries around getting an opportunity to really dive into just what you like and what you want. So, hopefully, people can hear what we're saying and think of creative ways to still be able to replicate that if it's not within their means currently or even maybe their wants currently.

Vicki Larson [00:18:22]:

Yeah. You know, Heather, you bring up something that's really important because one of the biggest myths about Live-Apart-Together relationships is that you, well, it's only if you're wealthy. I just need to say that when you meet someone and you date, you're not living together. Nothing has to change. Right. Whatever living situation that person has and you have doesn't have to change. But let's say people say, well, what's cheaper to live together? Oh, yes, it is.

Vicki Larson [00:18:54]:

I know that. It's just that that's a financial decision. That's not a romantic decision. Get a roommate, Airbnb, a space, your couch or something if you have to. And you talk about being creative, and you know it's true because one woman I interviewed, her partner of 18 years, lives in a small hand-built cabin out in the middle of God knows where in central California, and he's so happy. And she lived in a community house with other people because she wanted community. So that's the way they both could afford their lifestyles, him very minimally, she with other people. And then, when that house disbanded, she recreated that with other people.

Vicki Larson [00:19:52]:

So you can be creative. It's not really expensive. But also, one woman said, so she bought herself a small condo a few miles away from her husband. She considers that an investment in their marriage because they might have gotten divorced if they didn't give each other this space. And I will tell you, divorce is not cheap. Usually, people have to move anyway when they get a divorce. Very rarely does someone stay in the shared housing. So those are all things to consider when we're talking about financial means.

Vicki Larson [00:20:38]:

You can find ways to be creative if you want to and if you want to make that relationship work.

Christopher [00:20:45]:

And again, we're not selling Live-Apart-Together. It's an option that people may not even consider without hearing from someone who's gone through that and who has experience.

Vicki Larson [00:21:00]:

Yes. And I'm not saying it's better than it's an option. Yes. And it's really not good for some people, for people who just really. Maybe they have insecure attachment or jealousy or whatever. It's not for everybody. It really isn't. And so, yes.

Vicki Larson [00:21:19]:

I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. That's very important. I'm not saying it's better. It's an option.

Heather [00:21:24]:

I think it's very refreshing to talk about different options. So we really appreciate, you know, your thoughts on it. Absolutely. We love to ask our guests of the names of our show, the Virgin, the Beauty, and the Bitch, if there's one that really resonates with you or a story of your own journey that you like to share. So I'll pass that over to you.

Vicki Larson [00:21:46]:

Yeah, well, okay, so I'm picking beauty because I am. I am 67, on the cusp of turning 68, and there is a lot of societal judgment about women who age, which we do if we're lucky. I mean, we're really. If we age and that we've lost our beauty or our youthful beauty or, you know, or. So, there's a lot of societal judgment about women past a certain age because this society highly prizes youth and beauty above anything else. And may I say, it's a very limited version of beauty. Tall, thin, blonde, blue-eyed, white abled, you know? And so that pushes out a lot of other people. There are very few people who look like that, okay? Most of us do not.

Vicki Larson [00:22:58]:

And so, the last book that I wrote was called Not Too Old For That, about how women are changing the story of aging. And I do have a whole chapter about beauty. And I will say this. You know, I look in the mirror, and every day, it's like, well, what fresh hell is this? Where did this, I got jowls all of a sudden in the last year. Jowls? Like, who asked for that? Right? However, it's what we do with that. I am so thankful that I am youthful. I mean, I just rode 21 miles today.

Vicki Larson [00:23:34]:

I'm working up for the climate ride. I'll be doing 35 miles. I hike. I'm so thankful my body can do what I want it to do. That what this looks like, this is who I am. You either like it or you don't. And I think what's really important for women who internalize these societal standards of beauty and are constantly judging themselves and maybe wasting a lot of time and energy and money on procedures and cosmetics and all sorts of things to try and make us look like we're not aging, when we had the lockdowns, and we couldn't go to get the Botox, and we couldn't get the hair dyed, and we couldn't do whatever it is that women do, the eyebrow, microblading, whatever. Were we still lovable? Yeah.

Vicki Larson [00:24:30]:

The people who loved us still loved us. Right. And I thought that that was a real powerful message for us to go like, how much time and energy and money are we putting into this narrow version of what society says beauty is? And look, I dye my hair. 

Vicki Larson [00:24:58]:

That's an indulgence I allow myself. But I do start. I think it's important for not just women, but men, too, to, like, ask yourself, what is. What is beautiful about a person to you? What's beautiful about yourself? Is it really this, or is it the heart and the brain? Because it's not just this. If we're lucky to age, things are going to happen. Sags and wrinkles and age spots. And if you're focusing on that instead of the other stuff, you might want to think about that a little bit more. So, yeah.

Vicki Larson [00:25:43]:

Beauty. Damn it. I'm beautiful regardless of my age.

Heather [00:25:52]:

Heck, yes, you are. Yes, you are.

Vicki Larson [00:25:54]:

And I didn't even put makeup on.

Heather [00:25:57]:

No, inside out.

Vicki Larson [00:25:58]:

Yes. 

Heather [00:25:59]:

I think I'm getting really loud on my mic right now because I'm so excited about what you're saying because, you know, and just the, you know, even the title of your book, it really just kind of hits the nail on the head of, you know, I'm sure diving even deeper into what you just went to share. And when I see the extenuating circumstances that women continue to put themselves through with Botox, with the endless amounts of money and time that we invest into these things. I am a firm believer in not ever shaming a woman who wants to do what she feels like she needs to do to feel beautiful. But I always encourage discussions that help us to fill that void that seems relentlessly gouged open, to fill it with things that come from the inside out. And, you know, I think that even in saying that people can think it's cheesy or, you know, missing the mark on how deep a hold the beauty business has on us. But I do think that that is. It is absolutely foundational in loving yourself, in the inevitability of aging, if we're so lucky, as you said.

Vicki Larson [00:27:14]:

Yeah. Yes, you're right. And yes, there's room under the umbrella for women who do want to get body sculpting and Botox, and that's fine. No, there's no judgment. I just say that if what you're doing is because society telling you that's it, then, you know, it's just okay to be curious about where is this image of beauty coming from, you know?

Christopher [00:27:48]:

Unfortunately, that's the tripping point, is understanding after you've gone through an entire life as this being the ultimate of who you can be and how you can be loved, being drilled into you and your psyche and your image, it's difficult to step away from that. Regardless of what people around you say about how beautiful you truly are, it's really hard to step away from the training that has gone on all these years in your life. It just so happens that Heather and I will be doing a beauty series in September. Four shows where we talk specifically about this topic. So definitely keep that on your calendar and come on back for more. But what you have said here is a great launch for that kind of conversation we're hoping to have as well. So, thank you for sharing that. How do people find your books and get to read more about some very, very juicy lifestyle choices?

Vicki Larson [00:28:58]:

I am all over the Internet. If you put my name, Vicki Larson, l a r s o n. In the search, you will find my website, and Instagram, and Facebook page, and LinkedIn. And I write on medium a lot. The new book Latitude will be published July 9, so it's under a month away. So I'm very, very excited about that. I'm on TikTok, sort of, kind of, kind of exploring that. Yes, I'm on all of the media except for Snapchat and Pinterest, which I never really quite understood.

Vicki Larson [00:29:36]:

But, and I have a website, you know, Vicky Larson. And so, yeah, I'm very, very excited to be here on the show and talking to your listeners, and I'm very delighted that you invited me. So thank you.

Christopher [00:29:56]:

It was a joy to have you. Your enthusiasm is bubblicious and we really appreciate, we really appreciate your energy and thoughtfulness. It really reaches deep and hopefully it will have people thinking more about their situation and what options they have. So, thank you for opening up that door.

Heather [00:30:20]:

Honestly, you are so vibrant and such a joy to talk to. And it's, it's just been a pleasure to have you on the show. So, thank you, Vicky, for joining us.

Christopher [00:30:30]:

Thank you. And you have been listening to the...

Heather [00:30:34]:

Virgin,

Christopher

The beauty

Heather

and the Bitch.

Christopher [00:30:37]:

Find us like us. Share us. Then you know what you're going to do. You're going to come on back for more to become a partner in the VBB community. We invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com. like us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and share us with people who are defiantly different like you. Until next time, thanks for listening.