VBB 286 VIRGIN REDEFINED

Intro [00:00:01]:
Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:
It all started appropriately or symbolically on the equinox of spring, our journey into a new understanding of the first word and the first character in our name, the Virgin. On this journey, we have hosted nine individual experts and authors to share their experiences and perspectives on a word we all believe we know so well because, at one time, we were all virgins. We want to thank you for listening, and we would love to hear what you got out of the series over these past four weeks. As a refresher, we want to take a few minutes to thank our guests with a quick review of each episode. Episode one, the Virgin body. Do you remember Stephanie Clark? The Reverend, the irreverent Reverend. Stephanie Clark and Talia Gray. Do you remember those, Heather?

Heather [00:01:23]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, some of my, those two have so much vivaciousness to them. So thoroughly enjoyed having those two together on the show.

Christopher [00:01:33]:
On that one, we were talking about the virgin body, and basically, that's the virgin we all know so well. We've known about it since, well, since we were born, basically because we had the tools but couldn't use them. So that's what that conversation was about. And I remember the reverend Reverend, as we lovingly call her. She is the author of three books, the last one being The Sex Goddess, Debunking the Mythology of God and Sex. She talked us through some amazing stories of her own life. Do you remember the one about living in Egypt?

Heather [00:02:19]:
Yes, definitely. I mean, her life experience is just absolutely fascinating, and she's taken it upon herself to look at how organized religion has shaped many aspects of women's lives. But her take on women's sexuality, in particular, going back to pagan times or pagan rituals and how, you know, monotheistic religions have shifted so much of how we view women's sexuality. So, yeah, I always enjoy her take on things. But what did you get out of that story, Christopher?

Christopher [00:02:58]:
Well, it was a story about her living as a young woman in Egypt in a small village. One of the customs that her then-boyfriend told her was that on the wedding night, basically, the father stands outside the door with a loaded pistol, and if there is no sign, or in this case, no blood on the sheet after their first night together, she could lose her life as tradition would have it. And that's been, unfortunately, a tradition long held and probably still in some places in the world that hold on to this idea that a woman should hold on to her virginity until marriage until she's owned by a husband, and she could lose her life if that is not something she is willing to do. That was scary, and Talia had a story. Talia is also an author, and her book was, it's called Goodbye Virginity. And it's a rare opportunity to hear from different women about their virgin experiences. She talked to 15 different women and got their stories as to their experiences, which is quite revealing because they're all so different. Right.

Christopher [00:04:32]:
We think that we tend to put virginity in this little box, but for every person, it's a unique and different experience. And we kind of don't take that into, you know, accounting of how complex this topic is.

Heather [00:04:50]:
Hearing Talia talk about how intimate it was to sit down and have women share their story around virginity, you could tell that even for her lived experience and the women that she spoke with, similar to tying back to what the Reverend said, even though so much of North American culture has changed. And to hear some of these stories from these women, how scary that first time can be how pressured a woman can feel, or just not in her own body, but in the expectation of a partner. Like the stories where a woman was really in her body, in her power, in her full consent, it just feels very few and far between. And I think that is ultimately changing. And I thank all the women who came onto this show, and people have been working for better sexual education in schools to prepare women in a more fulsome way for that decision-making process. Because, you know, if we're looking at what you said throughout different shows, the pornification of women's bodies or the purification on both ends of that, there's just such a lack of personal agency and autonomy to make this decision for herself and what her needs or wants or expectations or even desires, if we want to go there, would be from that moment to make it hopefully, you know, a positive experience.

Heather [00:06:35]:
So, you know, I think that as we built through those four different stages, something that was so clear to me is what our foundational building blocks, not only for that first time, if we want to call it that, because, as Christopher and I will recap now, to look at virginity beyond this kind of one singular moment, but really to experience everything that it has to offer. I think that we really uncovered a lot of building blocks of, you know, debunking the shame and the guilt to really find a state of, you know, a woman autonomous to herself.

Christopher [00:07:16]:
I think the one thing that I really want to point out from Talia, and she mentioned with a lot of emotion, was how many women don't want to talk about that experience but how freeing it can be to actually share that with someone. Whatever that trauma was for you, if it was a traumatic experience for you, is not to keep it locked inside yourself for the rest of your life, but to be able to release that and maybe then have a different outlook and a different perspective and a different way of approaching life, because you've now put that in your past. It's not something that holds you back. It's not a ball and chain on you for the rest of your life. I think that was a very important piece of sharing that she did from her work.

Heather [00:08:14]:
I think that's something that you, as our listeners, because even when you and I went on this journey together, and we shared our virgin stories with each other and with our listeners, I agree it was a very vulnerable moment, but it was an empowering one all the same. And also, to hear your story, Christopher meant a lot to me. So, you know, perhaps a takeaway for our listeners is if you haven't shared that story with a friend or someone you love and trust, I really agree, Christopher, that there's something important in sharing that story, or maybe even how you've kind of reconceptualized what virginity meant to you at that moment and how it's reshaping now to see it differently, that there is a lot of freeing in letting it go. You know that you don't need to judge yourself on how that situation went down.

Christopher [00:09:12]:
I do want to address women who are in a situation, say, a religious situation, where this topic is absolutely taboo to ever talk about with anyone, ever. I understand that kind of pressure as well. It's life or death almost. Maybe, in that case, you write it down somewhere, and you burn it. But just getting it out of your body might be the experience that sets you free to move forward and not have this as a stain that remains with you. For life, hopefully.

Heather [00:09:54]:
That's a good point. Sometimes, it's not safe to tell anybody about what that experience is like for you, but to write it down and get it out of your body, your mind, your psyche, and to really be able to do it freely in knowing that you'll burn it after. It's just to get how you really felt out of yourself and be honest with yourself about it. It's a really important experience.

Christopher [00:10:21]:
Next was our conversation with Laura Carpenter and Doctor Pauline Mortas, which was also very amazing. Laura wrote one of the seminal books on the topic. She's actually a professor at Vanderbilt University these days, but she authored this groundbreaking book titled Virginity Lost, An Intimate Portrait of First Sexual Experience. She did thousands or hundreds of interviews with individuals, male, female, and different sexual expressions. And she was able to tease out a few commonalities around virginity. There was virginity as a stigma that some people carry, something that they need to just get rid of as soon as possible. For others, it was a rite of passage into womanhood, and for others, it was an obligation of their worship. It was something that they valued traditionally, and it was really cool to hear that one-word teacher tease out these three different aspects.

Heather [00:11:32]:
Yeah. One of the things that we grappled with a lot in the various episodes was how we frame this first sexual encounter of losing one's virginity, and then we kind of teased out other ways of looking at it. You know, like something that's transitionary, like a stage or something that you give. Like when you're ready and if you're ready under the circumstances, that you're ready, that it's not a part of you that's gone forever. And that's where we started to bridge into the next couple series, is that there's an element of virginity to go into the conversations we did with Roman and Greek mythology, with the virgin being the person who is not controlled by the expectations of children or the expectations of a male partner. So that freedom to come back to just you, your essence, yourself, what Lisa had said, which was so beautiful, and maybe you can help me with the actual language, but that a woman truly onto herself, true to herself, it's not about how she's liked or perceived by herself or others, but that she walks forward in her own truth.

Heather [00:13:04]:
And I just think that when I start to bridge that understanding, that it moves me past some of the shame and guilt that has been layered into my life around my sexuality to instead say, I have the capacity to be reborn or to go back into a state of curiosity and discovering and almost, like, feeling lighter around where I want this next page of my life to go.

Christopher [00:13:38]:
Yeah, in this particular conversation, we're talking more about what it is that has been transplanted into you that becomes the shame and this guilt. It's a virgin mindset that you're given. And should you try to transcend that, that's where the shame and guilt come in because this is the baseline for you as a woman. This is how you should behave. This is how you should think about virginity. And should you stray away from that, you're going to come face to face with shame and guilt over doing something that is not approved, quote, unquote.

Christopher [00:14:24]:
It's more the mindset. Yeah.

Heather [00:14:26]:
One of the realizations for me in that episode was some of these, I guess, characteristics of the virgin was how we've been tied to the virgin and the virgin being tied to a woman's purity, worthiness, self-work, chastity, all of the things that come up with a good, quote unquote, good woman who has self-respect and self-esteem. It's the one who is very, very careful around her sexuality or just doesn't see herself as a sexual being at all until she's married or finds the one. And then the correlation between those characteristics, like I'm talking about, you know, somewhat like naive, new onto the world, sheltered, quiet software, soft, malleable, almost. And how so many of these characteristics are, for me, what shines through and how people see the traditional definition of feminine. And for me, that was a really powerful understanding because the work that Christopher and I do on this show is to unpack what centuries or even longer have been saying about, quote-unquote, the feminine that doesn't serve the full breadth of that powerful energy source that's in all of us, or however you want to describe that. So that was very important for me to kind of see that the man-made woman strikes again.

Christopher [00:16:18]:
I thought it was really poignant to have Doctor Pauline Mortas there because she is a research expert. She lives in Paris. She's a research expert and specializes in the history of sexualities in the 19th and 20th centuries. So she goes back and researches how women were treated and how they thought about their sexuality, even in those days. And it was really profound to me that she had mentioned that, in some cases, women who were very well off and educated weren't even aware of their own sexuality because they just had a role that was scripted for them. They didn't take it as something that they were personally involved in or had any control over, and on their wedding night, Boom, there it is!

Christopher [00:17:15]:
Your sexuality is now in full demand, and you know nothing about it yourself. You have no experience with it yourself. I thought that was very telling in her explanation of her work and her research.

Heather [00:17:33]:
That was very illuminating because she had shared that some of the pieces of history that she had found came from diary entries of a woman leading up to and after a wedding night and how absolutely unprepared she was for that moment. A mother or a sister would have never talked to her about it. It would have never been a topic of conversation in fear of her looking, you know, like a hussy or whatever.

Christopher [00:18:10]:
Decorum.

Heather [00:18:10]:
Decorum, right? And, you know, the accounts of women and what a shocking way to know that part of yourself. So, yes, that was quite the conversation. And what an interesting way to take her career in academia.

Christopher [00:18:31]:
It's interesting because when I think of that now, I can understand where the term virginity or virgin lost. You lost your virginity comes from, because it really is absolutely lost. Something you had one day, and the next day, it's taken from you, just ripped away from you. It's lost, and it's gone forever, and it's something you never knew.

Heather [00:19:01]:
Yeah. Well, that really brings it home. I feel like, for so many of these circumstances, rather than lost, its virginity taken.

Christopher [00:19:11]:
Yes.

Heather [00:19:12]:
Yeah.

Christopher [00:19:12]:
From there, we moved on to the Virgin Heart. Our good friend Gina Cloud came back to share her spirited insights. Stephanie Horton was also part of that episode. Gino is a best-selling author of W.O.M.A.N, A New Definition of Reclaiming the Feminine. She's a teacher speaker and inspires women to embrace their bodies fully and learn from their inner wisdom, which is something we appreciate getting away from the Virgin Body, the Virgin Mind, and getting into the heart, which sometimes inhibits women from truly expressing and engaging fully sexually. It's because of what they have been conditioned with through their virgin years or what they have been expected to do, or not to do, with their bodies. She broke those down really well.

Heather [00:20:23]:
Yes, she did. Oh, I love chatting with Gina because she's so juicy. She's just so full of sexual energy. That's how I feel when I talk to her. She's completely attuned to loving her body and what her body can do, almost in awe of her form. It's so refreshing to talk to a woman like that because she just exists, exudes confidence and self-assurance, and is so yummy and uplifting.

Heather [00:21:07]:
And honestly, it's not even for me, it's for her. It's just a joy to see it in her because I work towards that myself. And I hope that for other women in the ways that they want to define that for themselves because it's going to be different for everyone. So that was a very eye opening conversation around her thoughts on women's sexuality.

Christopher [00:21:36]:
I think that what comes from her, and I'm just getting this now, is that just the way that our social structures are set within family, media, and community, we condition girls to ask permission for pretty much anything that's intimate about themselves. Gina, as a young girl, never even thought of asking permission. And I think what she represents is for women to make that connection of, I don't need permission for this because she is an example of a woman who does not ask for or needs permission to express herself in any way she chooses. I think that for me, that's when I hear her and hear you speak about her, that's what comes to mind for me.

Heather [00:22:39]:
No, I think that's a huge piece of it. You know, even when we bring it back to what we've already talked about around the virgin, you know, how much of her life was predetermined for her and that you had to show the blood on the sheets to know that she hadn't made decisions on her own and had stuck to the confines of what was expected of her. So, on a foundational level, what Gina represents kind of crosses over so many different elements of the spirit of a woman who isn't holding back. She's not waiting for other people to say yes.

Christopher [00:23:25]:
And I think that in our conversations up to that point, that was the first time we heard a woman reference what you had just referenced a little while ago, that a virgin is a woman sovereign unto herself. She mentioned that during our conversation, and that was probably the first time it came up in that language, which set everything up so perfectly.

Heather [00:23:52]:
It did. And I do want to also honor our other guest, Stephanie Horton. She came onto that show and was very vulnerable in some of the experiences that she's gone through in her understanding of herself sexually and some of the hardships that she's faced in conceiving. We were able to unpack that a bit with Gina around what sort of self-narratives we have been holding on to that can have challenging effects on our bodies. So I think to have those two together was really something special to see what somebody is going through and how Gina has been able to work with women around the many, many elements that come with being a sexual entity unto yourself and deciding if and when you want to share that with a partner and under what conditions that actually make you feel good about that. One of the biggest takeaways for me was how she talked about going into a sexual experience with someone before being ready or being the right alignment for you. That to her it feels like a self betrayal. And that each time you do that because of what you think somebody else wants out of you, how that starts to eat away at your sense of self, rather than it being a place where people can be replenished and have a really beautiful connection with someone. And so, like, really kind of tapping into listening to your body and listening to yourself and having the bravery to say no. How meaningful that is for a woman's?  If you want to call it sacred sexuality. And I say that delicately because Christopher and I have talked about this before, that there's so much, it seems, telling a woman to be, quote unquote pure or watch their body count or yada, yada, yada, and then you live in a very pornified world.

Heather [00:26:16]:
So, like, the last thing that I want to do is add another layer of shame for a woman. My invitation to women is to really tap into genuinely what feels right for you and that you're not under any obligation to move forward again with a grain of salt because sometimes women can very much feel that they're at risk of being in a violent situation if they don't say yes, or it really just isn't their choice at all because someone's going to be forceful with them. But, you know, if I can remove what I'm saying from those elements where you are in real danger and focus in on the times where it's just guys talking about blue balls or somebody making you feel guilty for whatever reason, to listen to that episode again, for, at least for me, really is something. There's something that crystallizes the importance of understanding the middle ground, the gray area of a yes and a no.

Christopher [00:27:23]:
I think for us, it was important to bring to light that virginity is a lifelong partner, whether or not you acknowledge it or not. Whatever you've learned about that state stays with you for life. It can definitely skew the way you think about yourself, skew the way you think about intimacy, skew the way you think about sexuality. All of these things start with that one seed that you thought you got rid of over one event either a long time ago or recently, whatever it might be. But no, it is something that has sprouted roots in you and will grow with you through your entire life. So, we wanted to make sure that we pointed out the connection between this word and your state of being and the actions that you think are right or wrong about how you conduct your life. That was the purpose of the Virgin Heart.  It's to make that distinction and make it conscious.

Heather [00:28:51]:
Just building on that, Christopher, an uplifting element of that episode in particular, but building from the other two, for me, was like, no matter what's happened to you in your past or what choices you've made in the past, for whatever reason you felt like you had to, that you can be born again into your sexuality and your past sexual life doesn't have to influence where you want your sexual life to go. So that's a big piece of why we did this series. Is that what you've been so sold around, your sexuality isn't the end game unless you want it to be so, and encouraging women to think about what has been sold to them about what others want out of your body and instead, what do you want out of this life for myself and your body.

Christopher [00:29:48]:
And that, of course, bridged so perfectly into the last episodes, the Virgin Soul. For that episode, we were blessed with three amazing guests. Hannah Blank, who, if you want to talk about the history of virginity, that's the person, that's the book you read. It's virginity, basically the untold history. Her work has been a bestseller for a very, very long time.

Christopher [00:30:24]:
We also had the privilege of having Kim Hudson, who made the transition into the virgin that we're speaking of now; it transcends the physical into an evergreen experience. That's positive because you are the one in control of that. In addition to that, we had Lisa Marchiano, the Jungian analyst, podcaster, and author of The Vital Spark. And that was, again, building on everything that we had talked about previously and what we foresaw when Heather and I started all this. We've always seen the virgin and virginity as something that is not just a chunk of your life. It is something that is your entire life, something that you can control and something that you can use in a positive way, as in all aspects of your life. That's where we were going with this whole series, and that episode is the one that really built on that premise.

Heather [00:31:37]:
Yeah, I mean, those three were, oof, so incredible and so very different in their own ways, which made for an amazing contrast on this kind of final stage, if you want to call it, of our journey with this series. And, I mean, ultimately, you know, we've kind of layered through the different episodes and how they built on each other. But ultimately, what comes out of that final conversation for me is what you just highlighted there, Christopher, that it isn't just about sexuality when it comes to the Virgin Spirit. Like, what are the parts of you that are untouched by anyone else, anyone else's expectations of you can realign to? And then, you know, either make a change in your life or continue with the passion in your life or have the curiosity and bravery to try something new. Like, to me, that is the virgin spirit, is that I can be whole again. Whole and not scared, despite what's happened to me in my past, to move into either a new level of understanding in my life, trying on a new challenge. And there's something extremely replenishing, replenishing in that thought. 

Heather [00:33:12]:
Is it the goddess Hera who goes back to a Spring each year to return to her virgin state? The visualization of that is so beautiful to me that all of these things that other people have either judged you for or tried to tear you down or say that, you know, you couldn't do it for x, y, and z? Maybe it's because you're a woman. Maybe it's because you're everything else that comes with our intersectionality. To be able to feel full again and move through what any naysayer has said to me, and that is the possibility of the evergreen spirit.

Christopher [00:34:01]:
It was a very interesting episode because we had Hannah Blank. She did the history of what we call virginity. Kim Hudson outlines a woman's path, defining her own power and authenticity. Her book is called The Virgin's Promise. And talking with Lisa Marchiano, we talked about the apex virgin, the goddess Artemis. We talked about Hera, the long-suffering wife of Zeus, who needed to replenish her virginity every year.

Christopher [00:34:40]:
Then we talked about Esther Harding, a Jungian analyst who came up with a phrase that you were looking to quote earlier. "A Virgin is a woman who, whether in a relationship or not, retains her own sovereignty. She does what she does not because of a desire to please, not to be liked, not to be approved, even by herself, but because what she does is true."

Heather [00:35:09]:
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that really caps off the experience for me, this journey of these four weeks that. Yeah.

Christopher [00:35:26]:
I think for me, it's looking inside oneself and finding what is true and living what is true, and doing that is the soul of the virgin. It is to do what is true for you.

Heather [00:35:48]:
So there you have it, folks, that an absolutely outstanding place to end off? I want to thank all of the guests who came to help us build toward this culmination of information and understanding. I hope that our listeners I'd love to hear something that spoke to you or something you're diving into a little deeper. That's really the heart of why we do it.

Christopher [00:36:26]:
You can find our contact information here at virginbeautybitch.com. I also want to set you up our Fall Equinox series where we do the same four weeks of intensive conversation around Beauty.  And we do it again in the winter, the harsh winter, when we talk about the Bitch leading up to the winter solstice as well. So this was the first time Heather and I have done this where we focus on our names, Virgin, Beauty, Bitch. I've written a book on these three archetypes, but this is the first time on the podcast wheve focused on why these words we use are so powerful and why they're so meaningful. That's the purpose of this. There's such history and human depth in these words that we could talk forever just on the virgin. As Hannah Blank put in her book, she could have written a book on each chapter on a topic we think is so trivial and mundane and easy to explain, but it's not.

Christopher [00:38:02]:
There's so many nuances to these words, and we want to give them every opportunity to be shared and understood and get feedback on what they mean to you as well. We hope you'll join us in doing that.

Heather [00:38:17]:
Absolutely. And I'm really looking forward to the next part of this series on Beauty. It's been such a surface-level word, but it's been such an addiction and a constant, ever-fleeting desire to be physically beautiful for women and what that's meant for women over time. And, of course, our podcast works to look at what makes you feel the beauty that exists to you beyond the surface, so all the layers within you. So I'm really looking forward to that one.

Christopher [00:38:57]:
So that'll be in the fall, in September. Between then and now, we are going to continue with really amazing guests and very profound conversations on things that impact the lives of women everywhere. So I hope you'll join us.  You have been listening to the Virgin.

Heather [00:39:20]:
Series, the Beauty, and the Bitch.

Christopher [00:39:24]:
Find us, like us, and Share us! Please take a moment to reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you on social media, on our website, or wherever is convenient for you. Please, we'd love to hear from you.

Heather [00:39:41]:
Thanks for joining us for this ride.

Christopher [00:39:43]:
To become a partner in the VBB community. We invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are Defiantly Different like you. Until next time, thanks for listening.