VBB 284 Virgin Heart

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being Defiantly Different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

So, welcome to part three of our four-part conversation on virginity and its lasting impact on the lives of women. A common question we hear is, what can a grown, experienced woman possibly learn from talking about virginity? To that question, we ask this question: as a woman, how do you relate to the world around you as a sexual being? Sexuality is a natural expression for all creatures, but for many women, it's made to feel dirty, deviant, shameful, and even sinful. And what do these responses have to do with virginity? Well, I'm glad you asked because we explored those connections today with two amazing guests. It's with great joy we welcome a woman who is a deeply devoted teacher, speaker, and bestselling author of W.O.M.A.N, a new definition for reclaiming the feminine. She's a rebellious, revolutionary leader dedicated to helping women free themselves from the societal, biological, and personal prisons that all women have endured for millennia. She inspires women to fully embrace their bodies and to learn from their inner wisdom. Welcome back, our friend Gina Cloud, to Virgin Beauty Bitch.

Gina Cloud [00:01:42]:

I love seeing both of you. I was so excited when I got the request to join again. Thank you for having me.

Christopher [00:01:48]:

It's our pleasure. We welcome Stephanie Horton, a women's circle facilitator who recently created a social group called the Wild Feminine with a mission to build spaces where the power of feminine energy can bloom. We welcome you, Stephanie, to Virgin Beauty Bitch.

Stephanie Horton [00:02:07]:

Bitch, thank you so much for having me excited to be here.

Christopher [00:02:10]:

Thank you both for adding to this conversation. In week one of this series, we explored the Virgin Body and how the hymen has been made a line in the sand that, once crossed, a woman has lost something that she can never regain. In week two, the Virgin Mind and how purity and virtue have become a measure of a good woman versus the bad, the Madonna-whore complex. In this week three, the Virgin Heart, it's how women's sexual nature has been either purified or pornified. How women have been made to concern themselves with pleasing others or live with the shame and guilt of putting their pleasure before others. Now, Gina, am I way off view on these things? Did you, as a young woman, ever find yourself under these limiting expectations of sexuality?

Gina Cloud [00:02:58]:

Absolutely not. I mean, you know, hell no. I was truly born to do this work, and I have always been a rebel. And, you know, I was raised Catholic, so there was a lot of dogma around women's bodies and what we were supposed to do and sexuality. And I was such a rebel that I remember my dad once said to me, he was having a generic conversation about premarital sex and, you know, I think I was twelve, but this is what I said to him. He was talking about waiting until after you're married. And I said, well, I wouldn't buy a pair of shoes without trying them on. Oh, Blasphemy.

Stephanie Horton [00:03:37]:

True.

Gina Cloud [00:03:38]:

I mean, oh my God, you know, so, like, that's how I thought. And I was very mouthy about the idea of our freedom. And, you know, I was in Europe in 2013; I was in Rome, my first trip to Rome. I actually wrote a great blog post called How My Bare Shoulders Kept Me Out of Italy's Churches. It was summertime, and every church I tried to go into wanted me to put a plastic tarp around my shoulders. It was hot as hell. And my point of view was, are you asking the guys to do it, too? No. So, no, I'm not going to enter the Vatican. I'm not going to enter; I don't care how beautiful that church is.

Gina Cloud [00:04:20]:

My body is my temple, and you will not defile it. So, I did not set foot into a single church that required me to put a tarp on.

Christopher [00:04:27]:

Is that your experience, Stephanie? Were you a rebel, too?

Stephanie Horton [00:04:30]:

I had to definitely say so, yes. I would like to say I've always been a little bit of a rebel at heart, but societally, no, maybe not. I've actually been reflecting on that lately and trying to deconstruct a lot of the kind of fear that I've been feeling around, just feeling comfortable and being myself and letting other people see who I am at my core. So even though I've always kind of had issues with Schreider and the rebels and me, my soccer team, actually growing up, was called the rebel. So it was actually very fitting. A little bit of a, you know, premonition there, maybe prophetic. But it's taken me a while to really feel that fire within me.

Stephanie Horton [00:05:16]:

And honestly, I feel like I'm really to shift things up.

Heather [00:05:21]:

I mean, it's interesting to hear from the two of you because I also identify as more of a rebel and see societal prescriptions as something to be bent or broken, and that often they've been purposefully woven throughout different aspects of our life to keep us controlled or keep us in a state of mind of such. I would call it either self-hatred or self-criticism or just always overcritical. We don't get to really connect with our bodies in the ways that I think a lot of our male counterparts have been encouraged to do so since they were very young. And I want to kind of start off at least a part of our conversation with the book called Pussy A Reclamation because it is a fantastic read, and I would highly recommend it to anybody who's listening to the show. But one of the aspects that she talks about in this book is just as the pussy is the source of all human life, pussy is also the source of each woman's connection to her own life force, her voice, and her sense of internal power. To me, that is so meaningful because, you know, whether it's when you're younger, and you're not given language to talk about your vagina or what happens to your vagina and all of the things that are coming as you go through your adolescence, it becomes this closed off area. So many women in previous generations are so almost repulsed by this very important aspect of our self that doesn't only birth all human life but is also such a source of our own power and our own connection to self. So, I'm wondering how that kind of bit of the book resonates with each of you.

Heather [00:07:15]:

Stephanie, I'm not sure if you've had a chance to read the book, but how does that kind of hit you?

Stephanie Horton [00:07:21]:

Yeah, absolutely. I haven't had the chance to read the book yet, but I know it's on my reading list. So I do hope to get to it soon, but it really does resonate with me. You know, I feel like I'm kind of at a crossroads in my own personal life when deciding what I want to do with my career. Currently, I work in the technology industry, which is very masculine-driven. I work at a startup, and, you know, the culture and the go go, go and the sales and the money, you know, it hasn't been feeding my feminine side. So I feel like, you know, it's part of the deconstructing that I been doing is learning how to kind of pull back from that mindset and the way that way of kind of moving through the world and deciding, you know, what do I want to do? That's maybe, as you could say, softer. Getting in touch with myself, deciding. Getting in touch with my feminine side.

Stephanie Horton [00:08:15]:

And it was really only until recently that I really started to learn about how our creativity as women really comes from the life force that's within our womb. And so just trying to harness that power of not only the capability, if you have a womb, to lose birth children, but also build birth art and creations. And if you want to birth a project that changes the world, we have the power to do that. And I think we forget sometimes that we are a part of nature and we're a force of nature. And so I really, really resonate with that. So I can't wait to read the book, anything.

Heather [00:08:55]:

How about you, Gina? How's your connection to that?

Gina Cloud [00:08:59]:

Well, it's pretty deep. And it's funny. I know who Mama Gina is because about 15 years ago, our work people were comparing a lot of things that we talked about were similar. But, you know, I want to wax a bit esoteric because the connection between the vagina, the yoni, the pussy, whatever word you're comfortable using, and the throat is a very esoteric and ancient one. And many women, if you look at it, the throat is a narrow tube. The vagina is a tubular organ with a muscular structure. And one of the tenets is that when women are blocked sexually, their voices are also blocked. When our voices are blocked, we have trouble speaking up, speaking out, speaking our truth, and setting boundaries; we usually shut down sexually.

Gina Cloud [00:09:46]:

And what does most organized religion do? It enforces the idea of women to remain silent and good. And, Chris, I love what you said, purify or pontify, and when you have the versions of, you know, religion suppressing women, that's why I mentioned that story of me in Rome and growing up, because I don't know of an organized religion that doesn't somehow vilify women's sexuality and encourage us to be nice and to not speak up and speak out in the same kind of a way that a man might set boundaries. In many ways, women need to use their voices in a stronger way to set boundaries because there's a tremendous amount of repression and abuse, and we need to have very firm boundaries. So, there's that, there's this fulcrum between the voice and the vagina, and it's the heart. And you started out by talking about the heart connection here.

Gina Cloud [00:10:36]:

And I feel like what happens in that purify, pornify, those ends of the spectrum. And I just love that. That gave me goosebumps when you said it. The purifying aspect wants you to live in your heart and deny the pleasure principle, deny your sexuality, or wait until you're married. And even then, it's not about your pleasure. It's about procreation. It's not about, you know, I want to enjoy my own body.

Gina Cloud [00:10:57]:

And then the Pornify, which I think we have a lot going on today. I have a 29-year-old daughter, and, you know, I've watched as she's grown into this space and her friends, not her so much, but there's a mindset of, it's no big deal. Want to have sex? I don't know you. I've just met you. We're drunk. Let's just hook up. There's no heart connection.

Gina Cloud [00:11:21]:

And I really feel that that actually is so harmful, not just to a woman's body, but more to our psyche and the idea that the heart and our sexuality come together because I feel like when our heart and our sexuality make the choice to have sex, it's usually an alignment that promotes a deep connection between the two people. Some people might say it's on the Ponify side and the Purify side. Like, really, it doesn't have to be a thing. It doesn't have to be this amazing experience every time. And, yeah, that's true, but my point is, why would you want to bypass your heart, which in many instances might say to you, don't have sex with this person and just do it anyway? That's a form of allowing yourself to be raped. I think of it as an energetic kind of rape. Even if you're married to somebody, even if you're in a relationship with somebody, if you don't want to have sex and you do it anyway, there's a form of betrayal going on there between the body, the heart, the psyche, and the collective consciousness of women overall. So, to me, this is a really powerful thing, and that's a point of entry into life, and our life is the most important piece in that.

Gina Cloud [00:12:39]:

So that's a really deep subject matter.

Christopher [00:12:42]:

So, I mean, it goes back to conditioning. I mean, as a man, I don't have any of these reservations, all of these steps that a woman has to take in order to enjoy what she is intrinsically given, to enjoy her body. There are so many barriers you have to overcome to free yourself and open yourself to your own pleasure. And I know, Gina, for you, it's different because you seem to be born with a direct connection to that part of yourself. But in the women that you work with, how do they translate these barriers? Or do they even see them?

Gina Cloud [00:13:25]:

No, I think I feel they do see them. If they don't see them initially, like when I start coaching with them, it becomes clear pretty quickly. But the way the barriers present is there's a lot of physiological issues, like extreme, you know, premenstrual stuff, even some autoimmune stuff. But a lot of times, it's cysts, you know, issues within the reproductive biology that they've struggled with. And then we start to unpack it, and they. There are just so many tears because there's a realization of what conditioning put that there in their lives. What experiences or violations have they had that put that there? They're aware of it subconsciously, which is why, like, they end up finding me to work with.

Gina Cloud [00:14:09]:

But when it becomes conscious for them, it's a. It's a. A tidal wave of emotions. But yet, it's still a challenge to step outside. Like, Stephanie, you were talking about being in the tech industry massively. Just tremendous masculine frequency. How everything is done, just the pace of it is completely masculine. And you're probably.

Gina Cloud [00:14:32]:

There are more women in tech now, but I've worked with women in your industry, and it's really challenging for them to let themselves be soft, be silent, be still, to get away from the mind. The mind is the issue with all of us. Our society is so mentally driven right now. So it's something that. It's an undercurrent of knowing, I think, that all women have. And then, when it becomes conscious, there's just this desire to go home.

Stephanie Horton [00:15:00]:

That's so beautiful, Gina. And it's interesting that you mentioned. Just the past couple of weeks, I've actually been dealing with an ovarian cyst on my right side. It's the first time I've ever had one. A couple of weeks ago, I ended up in the hospital on a Saturday just because of the pain and vomiting. And I ended up back in the hospital this past week, and it hasn't ruptured or anything. But what's kind of digging into maybe the more spiritual reasons and metaphysical reasons behind the cyst and the right side is kind of the side of the masculine and the left being feminine. And, you know, I've been kind of seeing this as a.

Stephanie Horton [00:15:41]:

The word purification has been coming up for me a lot. I don't know if I really resonate with the term purity, but I like to think of it more as a cleansing. And I'm, you know, just trying to distill that wounded masculine energy in my body. And it's my body's way. I'm just kind of dispelling that. For the past couple of years, I have been on different types of first eye medications, antidepressants, and anxiety meds, all for my ADHD. Over the past couple of months, with me wanting to learn how to figure out the walls in my own kind of soft and more dominant way, with my doctor's permission, I tapered off all of my medications. And now it's very interesting timing of cortisol that the switch has come up on my masculine side and is now shrinking, hopefully to the point where it'll just go away.

Stephanie Horton [00:16:38]:

But it's a very interesting point. I love this.

Gina Cloud [00:16:43]:

Can I share something with you? Because you brought this up. So when the reproductive issues happen, and in relation to the last question that I was answering, there are. Christiane Northrop influenced my work a lot 25 years ago when I first started doing this. But she found in her practice as an (OBGYN) who has become a very spiritualized doctor when it comes to women's issues, the ovaries and issues with the ovaries are related to issues with others. For instance, I don't know if you're a people pleaser, but for women who tend to have ovarian issues, it's about other people. It's about your relationship with other people and giving over to other people when cysts happen, or things happen within the uterus. It's about how you feel about yourself. Also, I'm going to be very bold because that's just the way that I am, and I will do it.

Gina Cloud [00:17:32]:

I want to suggest that I have these ten gen ecology principles, and my first one is that you are your own best doctor. No one knows your state of health and wellness better than you do. Your doctor is a team player and not the boss of you. And I am extremely, vocally outspoken about Westernization, the Western pharmaceutical model that makes women's bodies their cash cow. They medicalize us with antidepressants. I've worked with women who. This one woman came to me. She wanted to work on weight.

Gina Cloud [00:17:59]:

She had read one of my blog posts, Joy, the key to weight loss. We talked about her weight in one session. We went through her life. She got off her birth control. She got off of her antidepressants on her own. I didn't even tell her to. She lost the weight twelve weeks later because we went into the heart of the matter. And so I say to you, a lot of the drugs that you're probably on because I see this so consistently with women are part of what's blocking your ability to go home and re-experience that natural feminine frequency and flow that's in you.

Gina Cloud [00:18:27]:

So, but the ovarian stuff always resonates. Like, I have goosebumps. It always resonates with women where it lands in your body. It's just the body never lies. And it's so profound.

Heather [00:18:39]:

Just picking up on what you said there, what both of you have said, and this concept of even when you're in a relationship, that when you have sex, when you don't really want to, that it's a betrayal of your body. And I really want to dig into this because, to me, this is the foundation for sacred sexuality for women. I think what organized religion has tried to sell to women is that their version of sexuality is the only way for the female body to be sacred in its sexual form. And that is pretty much through abstinence until you want to procreate. But to me, like, all of how awful that is and want to unpack that too, but to me, to really understand what's happened in our very pornified culture, where women are feeling increasingly pressured to look absolutely perfect, there's all of the things on apps and stuff to make you look a different way and your eyes are bigger. Girls as young as twelve want surgeries to make their eyes look different and their cheeks higher, and there's so much time tied to how our bodies look to other people that we, with that type of time investment, it becomes. This is the main thing that I'm here for because I have put so much of my life into this thing, which is the main thing that people see about me. And not only does it stop there, when you're actually in a position where you genuinely want to have a connection with somebody, and you want to have sex with them.

Heather [00:20:16]:

I've talked to so many women that they're not even present in that moment. They're thinking about how I look right now. How do I look right now? Not what I'm feeling. Am I connected to my body? Am I enjoying this moment, this experience with another individual that I've decided to share my body with? So to me, when it comes to really thinking about sacred sexuality for women when you have this hyper-pornified culture, that saying hookup culture is fine, we can do it just like guys, you know if guys can do it that way, then, you know, equality is for us to be able to do it that same way when truly, you know, as, as was said, already entering into a woman's body, entering into the closest access point to create life, is a completely different experience. So, I'm wondering about your thoughts on sacred sexuality. And, like, Stephanie, how is that shaping for you, or what has your experience been with, like, for you in your life? In. And I believe that that is such a unique experience for each woman. There are going to be women listening to the show who do not want to wait till marriage. And if that is truly what is right for you, then that's what's right for you.

Heather [00:21:32]:

And so I'm just wondering what sacred sexuality has meant to you, Stephanie, and how it's evolved.

Stephanie Horton [00:21:38]:

Yeah, I love the topic, and it's something I've been thinking a lot about recently and actually talking about it with my partner, who is male. And, you know, we were having conversations about, you know, pretty candidly about how we can improve our sex lives and. And maybe just changing both of our approaches to sex, which, you know, for the longest time has been, you know, at least in my mind, as far as, you know, conditioning from society and, you know, previous relationships or partners. You know, I'm just there so that God can finish, and then that's just it. And it's, you know, and instead of, you know, just trying to change, you know, my mindset and just knowing that my partner is also okay with sex being more of, you know, as it should be, more of a connection. It's sacred. It's, you know, when two become one, as they say. And so, you know, just letting him know and him, you know, letting me know that he's okay with us having sex without even orgasm and hiding our part being an endgame.

Stephanie Horton [00:22:51]:

But, you know, of course, his. You know, he still says, of course. He, you know, was like, yeah, for me, at least at the end, you know, and he's okay kind of not finishing because I think at some points, you know, actually, I don't even know where I was going because.

Gina Cloud [00:23:11]:

Because a little bit of a word.

Stephanie Horton [00:23:12]:

Solid.

Christopher [00:23:13]:

Because he loves you. Yeah.

Stephanie Horton [00:23:14]:

Yes, exactly.

Gina Cloud [00:23:15]:

Yeah.

Heather [00:23:17]:

How about you, Gina?

Gina Cloud [00:23:20]:

Well, first, everything you just said. Oh, my God, you're so my sister. I mean, these are things I really talk about. And the idea that we, as women, you know, the patriarchy has been so effective. And I always like to clarify when I say patriarchy because some men, when they hear that word, think I'm talking about men. I'm talking about the societal construct of patriarchy and the repression of women and the domination of women within it. And I just feel like they've been so effective that we run around focused on our appearance as the only thing that's valuable in us.

Gina Cloud [00:23:57]:

They don't even have to try anymore. The beauty industry if we did away with the beauty industry and (OBGYN), that branch of medicine, women would be in control of their lives, their hearts, and their bodies 100% because it's the influence that has on us. From the time we're little girls. And the workshops I've done with little girls start as early as ten years old. They want a diet. They're looking to change how they look. Because I have this tenet that a woman's body is not her power. The power comes through our bodies, and it's the exploitation of these bodies that over-sexualizes us, pornified us, and does all of that.

Gina Cloud [00:24:31]:

So I just have to acknowledge what a great bit that was that you said. It was just really just so on point and so important. For me, sacred sexuality is something that I define right, and every woman should define that for herself. And what that means for me is it's got to be from my heart. I have never been able to be a casual sex person. It's always felt like something that was wrong to me. I think maybe once or twice I did, and I felt dirtier than I've ever felt in my life. Not from a place of society's judgment but because I felt like I violated my temple.

Gina Cloud [00:25:08]:

Because this person that I just had a really powerful experience with is something that's so powerful that it can create life. I wasn't really connected to him before I did that, and it just. It felt so gross. So, I would rather go without sex because sex, for me, is something that is an alignment of body, mind, and spirit. And to have it just be an act is so one-dimensional, and I've studied and experienced it. I love Tantra, but Eastern Tantra, because what we've done with Tantra here in the West is we've made it almost like soft porn.

Gina Cloud [00:25:47]:

Nobody really understands what tantra is, and it's driven by the heart. It's not about, you know, getting off. It's not about whether you have orgasms or he has orgasms. It's not about any of that. It's about the alignment in the heart. And from that place, the explosion that can happen with our genitals is incredible. But that's not what it's about. So, to me, I would rather go without than defile the sacredness of my own temple.

Christopher [00:26:15]:

I envy your daughter, having a mother that can teach her these ways. I think and feel saddened by how many women do not have any instruction as to what this can mean to them and how they can present themselves in a way that looks after their own well-being. It breaks my heart to even think of that. Right? This is interesting; he brought up this idea of a hookup culture, and I had a quote here from someone who said that as soon as feminists had won sexual liberation, it was reframed as sexual availability for men.

Gina Cloud [00:27:06]:

Wow, that's deep. And it's true; it's the subversiveness of how patriarchy, and that's why it's like I keep thinking in my blogs, these are all free. Everybody can go check them out. But I wrote one called Wake Up Your Sleeping Beauty and Stop Exploiting Yourself. I always have these bizarre titles that get downloaded. I don't even make them up; they don't even come from me.

Gina Cloud [00:27:28]:

But what you just said, like, it's the idea that it's our idea, but it's not our idea. We've been programmed. And I. Having identified as a feminist, you know, pushing against my father in Catholicism, I've had this conversation with many women that I know lately about how feminism destroyed feminine in many ways.

Heather [00:27:49]:

And it was.

Gina Cloud [00:27:50]:

It was. I think it was an organized push to deconstruct the family unit. And so many women I know who went for the job and super successful are lonely. They are actually afraid to admit it. I want to get married. I would like to stay home. I would like to have kids and stay home. Oh, my God.

Gina Cloud [00:28:05]:

I can't say that I love it because I'm supposed to be a feminist, right? And it's destroyed some of the essence of the feminine, and it's so radical. And it always starts in the school system. It starts in the Universities. It starts, and the programming happens, and then we just lose touch with who we really are.

Gina Cloud [00:28:25]:

And it's insidious because once it gets thrown out there, and the patriarchy does its thing, then we think it's our idea. Oh, we think it's our idea. You know, like Heather said, you know, oh, yeah, I want to have sex as much as men. I love porn. I love. And you know that you don't. It's been a seed planted because if you were aligned with that essence and if men were, too.

Gina Cloud [00:28:45]:

I do coaching work with men, and 100% of the men that come to me, come to me to help with porn addiction because they don't even want that to be how they see sexuality. It's just destroying masculine and feminine, and whether you're gay, straight, or whatever, there's always a masculine-feminine polarity. Otherwise, you'd just be friends. But it's destroying that, and men are waking up to it. It's young men because most of the really young men, all my clients, are in their late twenties or early thirties. They all learned about sexuality, truth, porn, and it's just this epidemic. And I feel like it's up to us, we women, to reclaim the feminine as sacred. Because if we say no, what are they gonna do, you know? I mean, well, we know that there are horrible.

Gina Cloud [00:29:30]:

There are horrible men out there who won't take no for an answer. But if we stepped into our power and reclaimed the sacredness of our body, we would be really honored that we could reprogram the masculine around us to look at sexuality and women completely differently.

Heather [00:29:48]:

I find it very interesting to think about how, because to me, feminism has gone through so many waves that we know about and that, you know, everything from the suffragettes and just becoming our own people under the law, all of that background. But for me, in, like, the feminism that I identify with, like, the core root of it is the belief that a woman should be able to decide for herself that she has agency, and she has the autonomy to act on that agency and to respect that for other women. And I do think that in the different waves of feminism, it was, well, we have to be in leadership roles, and we have to go up, up, up and up so that we can start to change the world and the world can have a different, hopefully, a different trajectory. And I do believe that that's important, and I do believe that is some women's path. Is it every woman's path? No. But as, you know, as was being said, what I find so heartbreaking is when I feel like we have come so far in certain ways, but I also have so many women in my life who can't feel empowered to want to stay home with their kids, to want to step into their real softness with their partner and, like, be taken care of, to take on more of some of those traditional feminine roles. So it just really hits me that it all kind of comes back full circle around a woman's sexuality for that, too, to be something that she truly defines for herself.

Gina Cloud [00:31:30]:

Heather, you just said something that was, I'm afraid it's gonna fly out of my brain. When you talked about feminism and its core roots. You made me realize that the root of feminism. This is a paradox of virginity because the definition of a virgin is a woman sovereign unto herself. And that's what feminism is at its core.  Like, whoo. That came through me. Right? That wasn't a Gina thought, but there's a circle, you know, a woman sovereign unto herself is a virgin, and here we are. You know, that's what feminism was. 

Gina Cloud [00:32:07]:

But what feminism has become, I want no part of. I really do. You don't feel that way. So I just had to say that because you just brought that forward.

Christopher [00:32:15]:

I'm happy you went there because this series that we were doing, Heather and I, is the final step. It's the virgin spirit. It's not a physical thing. It's not a thing of the mind. It's something that is spiritual within everyone. And you can live that your whole life. It's not a line you cross once a hymen is broken.

Stephanie Horton [00:32:43]:

Right.

Christopher [00:32:44]:

So, yeah.

Heather [00:32:45]:

True concept that there is that part of self that is always just for you and is evergreen just for you.

Gina Cloud [00:32:52]:

I like that.

Christopher [00:32:55]:

Okay. I want to read some of the statistics that you've covered. This is from a woman's course that I kind of snuck into as a lone man.

Heather [00:33:13]:

What name name did you register under?

Gina Cloud [00:33:15]:

What name did you use, Christina?

Stephanie Horton [00:33:17]:

I love it.

Christopher [00:33:19]:

So these are some statistics to back up everything you guys have just said. Okay, so there's a before and or a contrast of things here. Women control over 22 trillion in global spending. Women are the primary breadwinners in many American homes. Women are graduating in higher numbers from college, more than men. In many cases, women are becoming the most valued employees in many corporations, and in our society, women have the freedom to have any kind of relationship they choose.

Christopher [00:33:52]:

Yet, in the same breath, research shows that women are more lonely and depressed than ever before. 20% of women are on antidepressants. 90% of women have unhealthy relationships with their bodies and food. 50% of women are living alone, without a partner or support. 50% of women who are having sex are having less sex than their grandmothers. Real. But we're all in this silo of self, and we don't understand what is going on around us, to the masses, to women everywhere. And that's why we have these conversations.

Christopher [00:34:39]:

It's to bring it to the conscious mind so you can look at your situation, look at yourself, and know that you're not alone in this. This is an epidemic for women right now.

Stephanie Horton [00:34:54]:

Yeah, it is.

Heather [00:34:57]:

To build off of those thoughts, and I think that it ties nicely because of some of the transitions that we're going through in society. But we love to ask our guests, and for you two, I'd like to ask within the context of women's sexuality, what does feminine mean to you? And I'll kick it off with Stephanie.

Stephanie Horton [00:35:21]:

Yeah, thank you. I love that question. In terms of sexuality, the word feminine, to me, means letting go of a lot of anger and resentment that I think is stored in my body, which I've been working towards, and I think making pretty good progress, but letting go of that anger and resentment and tuning into my desire, you know, coming back to nature and what I like and what I don't like and just kind of doing a lot of relearning. But when it comes to dewor shim, for me, it's being receptive and softening, letting go of that anger, and tuning into my body more into what makes me me.

Christopher [00:36:10]:

What is that anger for you? Is it something that can be quantified? Is it something that you can put on paper? What does that mean for you, that angry piece?

Stephanie Horton [00:36:26]:

For me, a lot of anger, I think, has definitely come from childhood wounds for getting specific ataris with my parents that I didn't realize until more recently that I was still holding on to. I had realized that it was ingrained so deeply in my DNA. My husband and I got married almost two years ago, and, you know, I had an ectopic pregnancy when I was 22, back in 2012. And, you know, we want kids so badly, and, you know, just having trouble concealing. I actually met Heather at a women's retreat last year, and on the first full day of the retreat, we had a ceremony and made an offering. The first thing that came out of my mouth was that I wanted to get rid of the anger and resentment that was still being stored in my body. And I feel like my ancestors heard that and have responded and have been helping me. And so on my path to also becoming a mother, it's healing that mother wound and healing the wounds of my father and probably his before his, and my mom's mom before hers.

Stephanie Horton [00:37:45]:

And just trying to heal that ancestral line is really important to me before becoming a mother because that's something that I don't want to cast into the DNA genetics of my children.

Heather [00:37:57]:

It's very powerful. How about you, Gina?

Gina Cloud [00:38:04]:

So feminine in relationship to sexuality. I can, like, when you say that, I just feel. I feel all yummy in my body. Like, to me, it's. I do because it's a frequency for me in terms of my sexuality. It's being naked and loving, being naked, especially being naked outside, and that connection to nature and its surrender and its vulnerability and its wide openness becoming a magnetic portal, literally, for my lover. And there's just. It's like water in the desert for me; it is what feminine is and feminine can be.

Gina Cloud [00:38:40]:

I have a term I call fierce feminine, where it's like somebody's messing with my kid. There is no man. I don't care how masculine he is or how fierce and strong he is. That's going to touch fierce feminine because there's a frequency in that that's still feminine. Some people think feminine is weak or, you know, passive passivity. I see more in terms of surrender and vulnerability. We become receptive. The feminine, you know, feminine and masculine are just.

Gina Cloud [00:39:09]:

It's the yin and the yang. It's these principles in the universe that we, you know, we all have. But I feel a woman's body embodies these things when we tap into our feminine. And it's a very. It's like the end chapter in my book, which is nectar. It's like. And it's also seduction. It's flirting in a really beautiful way.

Gina Cloud [00:39:29]:

Seduction in Latin just means to lead astray. So it's like, want to come over here? You know, it's like, it's like, that's what seduction is, you know, and adorning myself, you know, instead of making it specific to a moment. And it doesn't have to be that. It can be something at the moment that I feel inspired by my partner that drops me into that feminine, you know, so it's. It's a. It's something I can actually, I can just feel it when you say it. Feminine and sexuality, like, they just go together, and there's a strength in that. And, Stephanie, I just wanted to mention that because I'm just sharing these tidbits as they come up, you know, anger is the hardest emotion for women to deal with.

Gina Cloud [00:40:06]:

I always say women get meaning allowed by society. Every emotion except anger. Men get none except anger. And you watch men, men process anger so easily, so quickly, and they're done with it. And something I really work with women on a lot because it's so in the way, and it's such a difficult emotion, you know, for women because we're told to be nice and don't speak up again. It goes back to these boundaries throughout the vagina, expressing yourself, and. But, you know, our sexuality is, is a force, and it's really beautiful.

Christopher [00:40:40]:

I like what you said about anger because when I think of anger, I think of it as a physical expression, and women aren't allowed any physical expression except for sexuality, so why would we allow you anger? Right.

Gina Cloud [00:40:53]:

You know, it's interesting that you. Because I, when I think of it as a woman, like, guys will punch walls, throw shit. You know, it's like that kind of stuff goes on. But to me, as a woman, it's about boundary enforcement, and it always comes through my voice. And so because it comes through my voice, it doesn't go into my body. So I feel like when we don't express it, and men are just much easier about it, no, I don't want to do that. It's like, so the vocal part, I think, is always there. And I think when men hit a certain threshold, it does get really physical.

Gina Cloud [00:41:28]:

And this is general, you know, in general, because there are men who'll do that and men who won't do that. But I think for women, we don't ever get it out of our mouths. So, it turns inward. Most of our stuff turns inward, and it goes into our biology and our reproductive biology in particular. And that's, Stephanie, that's probably 90% of why you're struggling with getting pregnant, you know? And so you're doing the work. You're doing the work, and it's going to heal you. But I always feel like it needs to be said because most women are terrified of saying something to the person, whether it's a boss or, you know, a relative or a child or a partner; they're terrified of saying how they really feel, and so they sugarcoat it, and they dumb it down if they're courageous enough to say anything. But that 30% that you sugarcoated or you didn't say is going to be in your body.

Gina Cloud [00:42:14]:

So there's this. You've got to get it out. You've got to get out.

Christopher [00:42:17]:

I want to add that sexuality, a great portion of the success of finding and gaining pleasure, is communicating and vocalizing what it is you want and don't want. And again, a lot of women are held back from actually expressing that. They feel shame or what they don't deserve, or they're not going to be heard, whatever it might be. That's interesting.

Heather [00:42:47]:

They feel awkward.

Christopher [00:42:48]:

Yeah. Right. So it's interesting. These things connect.

Gina Cloud [00:42:52]:

Yeah.

Heather [00:42:56]:

I want to bridge that, too. I think another layer of that, and I want to touch on this with all of you here, is around pleasure with yourself, masturbation, and getting to know your own body. One of the things that we got to do at this wild woman retreat, which was so fantastic, was to do things that happened in the seventies where, yes, we got a little mirror and we got to know her individually. We were all in our own separate rooms to have that moment and really liked it. I loved what our facilitator, like, the mindset that she put us in before we went to do that, because she said, I invite you to go in, no matter what you see, to tell her that she's beautiful, that exactly as she is, she is this amazing work of art that is yours just for you. It's your pleasure center. It's a portal. It's a life force for other beings, but also for yourself.

Heather [00:43:55]:

And to go in with that mindset helped me immensely because I think, again, when it comes to body image and body shaming, it's so easy to go into critical mode right off the bat. And honestly, I saw her in a different way than I've ever seen her before, and I have loved her differently since. That has made an impact with my own, you know, my own, you know, understanding my own body better; the more that I've been able to really tap into that, it's provided me with the language to be able to say that to a partner, to be able to know not just this one thing at this time on this angle is the only way it's gonna happen, but to try to find some other ways because there's some fun in that, and we deserve to, you know, have that fun and expand exploration, but, you know, with whatever people's comfortability is, just if you could talk around your thoughts on, you know, really that alone time with your body and with your sexuality, either of you, which sounds great.

Gina Cloud [00:44:57]:

I have always, I think I discovered my sexuality and orgasms when I was about four years old, and it was, like, amazing. I'm very grateful, although I don't know that it would have had an impact because this is the work I was here to do. I think my grandmother discovered me. I had fallen asleep with my hand between my legs after I don't remember how many orgasms. And because I was raised Catholic, I'm amazed that she didn't say anything. My father didn't try to shame me. I'm telling you, it wouldn't have worked. I just know it wouldn't have worked. They trying to shame me would have probably just made me do it more because of my nature, even at three or four years old. But as an adult woman, I've always found masturbation boring. It's a physical release. It's not like, for me, the good stuff is with a partner. It's the tantra. It's the explosion of light energy and all that good stuff. So it's like a release. And I know women are really into the toys.

Gina Cloud [00:45:57]:

I'll never forget, I had this one boyfriend who was an amazing lover, and we had done a lot of tantra together. When we split up, and we're still friends to this day, he was with a woman after me, and he said, Gina, I don't know what to do with this. She's addicted to toys, and I can't compete with the toys. And I feel like that's happened. I call them jackhammer vibrators. It desensitizes our vaginal tissue, and we need more and more stimulation and the subtleties and those channels that are amazing when you take your time to get there, they get overridden. At one point, I said to him, I said, well, maybe you should just have a managed toy and see if you can work around it.

Gina Cloud [00:46:36]:

So, you know, I said, see if you can, like, slowly take the toys away from her. But I find my pleasure is, I think, private pleasure. I think, you know, your personal pleasure, masturbation, whatever you want to call it, self-pleasure is something everybody should do. And because you have to be comfortable with your own body, I just know, like, for me, you know, some women love masturbating. And I'm like, it's not my favorite thing because it just feels one-dimensional, and I really want more. You could argue, well, you know, you could.

Gina Cloud [00:47:05]:

You can be more like a lover to yourself. I'm like, well, yeah, I can. But there's this whole other thing missing, and I can't provide that for myself. And I really am not into plastic. So for me, I think every woman, and it's interesting, Heather, because I've taught a workshop for years called the Sacred Facts of Life for Young Girls, and I get them right before they get their first period.  That's because moms don't really know how to have this conversation and because they're also hung up on their own stuff, and they don't want to pass that on. But that's one of the exercises I give these young girls, is to take a mirror and look and see and also to help them recognize all the things in nature that look like the vulva, you know, the shells and the fruits and the like.

Gina Cloud [00:47:46]:

I used to make a fruit sculpture of the reproductive anatomy. I took papaya for the uterus, and I would use celery stalks for the fallopian tubes, and I would put little almonds for the ovaries and a bell pepper for the vagina. And I would take a carrot and carve it out, using toothpicks to hold everything together so they could see the cervix. And I would take, like, oranges and make the labia or plum slices and make the inner and outer labia, because I was teaching them about their body, and this was a visual representation through nature. And when I talked about periods, I could also show them how a tampon goes inside because the bell pepper was hollow. So, it created this relationship with our bodies as nature. And so, having them look at themselves first is the message now. I started this workshop 20 years ago, and it's a totally different universe what these girls are getting as messages about their bodies right now. I'm sure masturbation is high on the list of things that women are doing or girls are doing. But from what place? Like, how is it being seen? And I think when it's a sacred experience with yourself, like, I know some people, you know, I've encouraged the idea to light candles, make a date with yourself for that if that's really what you love to do, you know, and It's different for everybody.

Gina Cloud [00:49:05]:

And, like, for me, it's just not my thing.

Christopher [00:49:08]:

I can't wait to get a fruit salad from you.

Heather [00:49:14]:

Oh, my God.

Gina Cloud [00:49:15]:

The best part. The best part is at the end, where they're all diffused because when they walk in, they don't want to be there because it's like, oh, my God, we don't want to have this conversation. And they get so excited about the end of it. They're all happy to be there, and they eat the fruit sculpture. They eat it, and it's like, oh, you know, I want that. It's amazing, and it changes something in them.

Stephanie Horton [00:49:36]:

Yeah, that's a long ago. See what I have on my fridge?

Gina Cloud [00:49:41]:

I love it.

Heather [00:49:43]:

How about you, Stephanie? What was that practice for you, or, like, what was your own experience or thoughts on it? On that?

Stephanie Horton [00:49:51]:

I've just actually been pretty comfortable with masturbation. I think I first discovered my sexuality, maybe at 10 or 11, something like that, maybe a little bit younger. But I've also gone through, after the retreat, where we did exercise with the mirror, I started to explore different ways of masturbation and trying to use toys less because I realized how desensitized it might really be down there. And I found a lot of success with that recently. But one thing kind of going back to the ranch we had been staying for the workshop, one thing that our host also mentioned that I really, really loved that stuck with me, and something you mentioned earlier is giving your body, or asking your body for permission, even if it's your own hand or a toy.

Stephanie Horton [00:50:52]:

That even though you think that you know, your vagina or your yoni, it's yours because it's part of your body, it kind of has, you know, the mind of its own, and it has its own response and response to touch and other stimuli. And just ask for permission to be touched. And that's something that stuck with me since then as well.

Heather [00:51:23]:

Very cool.

Christopher [00:51:24]:

I want to ask a controversial question.

Gina Cloud [00:51:29]:

I love Chris's controversial stuff.

Christopher [00:51:33]:

Have any women on this panel ever faked it, and why?

Stephanie Horton [00:51:40]:

Yes, I just wanted it to be over?

Gina Cloud [00:51:45]:

No.

Christopher [00:51:45]:

Never?  A rebel to the end.

Stephanie Horton [00:51:51]:

I admire that.

Gina Cloud [00:51:53]:

Part of it is I've never had to. Like I said, I started really early; I had a relationship with my body, and I wisely chose the man that I was in a relationship with. For me, if I didn't want to have sex, I just said I didn't want to have sex because if I wanted to have sex, I would have an orgasm. It's almost like that agreement to enter into that space, no pun, was my way of allowing my body to open and do that. But I just have always felt like that would be the same kind of betrayal to lie about. It's almost like saying I'm ashamed that I didn't, and I have to. So I'm going to say, that's my thinking. And I don't know if other women feel that way about it.

Gina Cloud [00:52:36]:

I suspect that's a similar thing. Or like there's something wrong with me because I didn't act like I'm supposed to. I really feel there's a woman who I interviewed when I used to do my own podcast. She doesn't teach in the US; she's in Europe. Her name is Diana Richardson. Many of her books are on tantric orgasms for women. I interviewed her a few times, and she really teaches the idea that there is no endgame. Orgasm is not meant to be the goal of sexual conquest.

Gina Cloud [00:53:03]:

It's not meant to be the goal. It's the intimacy that's the goal. And men, so many men that would come through her workshops were so happy and relieved that they didn't have to perform. She even had stuff like soft entry techniques where a man doesn't have an erection, and he enters, and you just lie together, and you still have that. You've got that vibration going, and maybe it turns into an erection, and it turns into an actual sexual experience. But the idea that intercourse is the be-all and end-all is part of the problem, you know? So, for me, if I don't want to, I don't, I don't. And I can see that's that upset look or whatever. And also, for a part of.

Gina Cloud [00:53:43]:

For a part of me, when I'm in a relationship, and I don't want to be sexual, it's either I'm having unresolved issues with my partner or I'm in a place with myself that is unresolved. And that space, because I feel like our sexual energy is a place of joy. It's when we are open, and that's feminine again. That's the receptivity and the magnetism and the openness that is joy. And so when I feel suppressed or repressed within my relationship, when I say that, I mean, like, there's an issue between us. Not that, you know, maybe there's. There's, you know, as outspoken as I am, sometimes there are really vulnerable things to talk about that, you know, I've said the 70%, and I still have 30% more to go. And I know I'm going to say it, but I haven't said it yet.

Gina Cloud [00:54:26]:

So I'm in this place of withhold within myself and withhold with him, you know? So it's, um. I don't. I don't do that. I don't do faking.

Heather [00:54:36]:

I definitely have. But I want to bring up that our education system totally screws women over when it comes to this. Like, in my sex ed, I learned what happens with a male orgasm and that I'm going to get a period. Like, that's literally what I learned. Like, nothing about a female orgasm at all. And I think that alone when I think that, you know, something that we're talking about more as a society is what they're calling the orgasm gap. Like the gender pay gap. And honestly, it's like we've already talked about with porn being so much of porn being so much of how people, especially young people these days, are learning how sex can work.

Heather [00:55:20]:

Orgasms and 99% of porn are not a woman having an actual, real orgasm. What is happening to her does not actually lead to her getting to that place. So, for me, it was, you know, I've been exploring my body for a long time, since I was also very young, like the two of you, and getting to know my pleasure centers, but actually being able to get mentally in my heart, in my body, to a place that I'm understanding my orgasm and can get there. I am kind of frustrated with that terminology because it's a process. But I do think that, you know, I. I'm glad that I was able to get to a point where when the first time it happened, I was like, oh, shit, I shouldn't swear.

Heather [00:56:06]:

And Christopher likes to say, we said this on another one, thinking about the concept of virginity, just to throw it out there because there are so many backward ways of thinking of it. It was the first time that she had her own orgasm, which I just loved, just reconceptualizing the whole thing in general. But I'm very passionate about changing sex ed to be more inclusive of what women's orgasms are and that ultimately being about honoring women and honoring the feminine.

Stephanie Horton [00:56:37]:

Yep.

Gina Cloud [00:56:38]:

And boundaries. Boundaries are such a huge part of that when we say yes and when we say no. And being able to verbalize what we actually want and having the confidence to say, you know, and a lot of it is about our relationship, too. What is your relationship to the word no? What's your relationship to the word yes? Most women have a really weird relationship with the word yes. Weird is the one word, but yes, people pleasers. So a lot of it is yes, yes, yes. And to say no to someone, and I teach this because. And I'll say, don't say no because no because means you're rationalizing something.

Gina Cloud [00:57:16]:

Just say no. It's really powerful when someone says, can you do no? And you don't have to be mean about it. You say no. If they want to say, why say, I just don't want to? That's so incredibly difficult for women. Insanely difficult. Because if you say no, you've got to justify, just know. I actually had a free boundary challenge on my website at one point.

Gina Cloud [00:57:39]:

And it was four days of what's your relationship to? What's your relationship to Yes, I want to. And, no, I don't want to. And just going through your day and observing when someone asks something of you, how you respond, how you really want to respond, and also when you want something, you know, and your ability to acknowledge, yes, you know, like, oh, do you want a cup of coffee? Can I bring you back a cup of coffee? And you go, no. Because you're thinking, oh, I don't want to be a burden. I don't want it. So many women say, yeah, could you do that for me? That would be great.

Gina Cloud [00:58:12]:

You know, so I feel like that whole piece with our sexuality is wrapped up in boundaries. You know, the boundaries foisted on us by the purity and the. And the Pornification and Purification. I love that, Chris, so much. You have no idea. But the boundaries that get foisted on us from those two places that are not authorized, authentic, and genuine to women are the consciousness that we are and women, the individual that we are.

Heather [00:58:40]:

This has been so wonderful.

Gina Cloud [00:58:43]:

Oh, my God, I love this. It is such a great idea to do this panel and just riff like this.

Stephanie Horton [00:58:48]:

Absolutely.

Gina Cloud [00:58:49]:

Yeah.

Stephanie Horton [00:58:50]:

I can't wait to read your book, Gina.

Gina Cloud [00:58:52]:

Oh, thank you.

Christopher [00:58:54]:

Tell us about it. Tell us about it. Tell Stephanie where she can get it. Come on. Let us. Let us know.

Gina Cloud [00:58:59]:

You can get it on Amazon or from my website. If you go to ginacloud.com, there's a tab for the book, and you can hop over to my blog. I love my blogs because I always say I didn't write any of it. Everything is downloaded. I go back and read this stuff, and I go, this is really good. Thank you. You know, and I think it comes from the collective feminine consciousness throughout the centuries. I really believe that's who writes; that's who channels through me.

Gina Cloud [00:59:24]:

So ginaploud.com, comma, the book is there. The blog is there. Or you can go to Amazon and type in W.O.M.A.N, a new definition for reclaiming a feminine.

Christopher [00:59:34]:

And, Stephanie, tell us about what you're doing, what your plans are, and what we can look forward to from you.

Stephanie Horton [00:59:41]:

Yeah. So, I have surrendered the plans for my women's groups entirely to the universe. I have no idea what the future will hold. But we've had two events so far locally. I live in Texas. We made vision boards at the end of last year, and recently, about two weeks ago, had our first woman circle. And so, hopefully, I'd love to turn that into a physical space in my small town. You know, there's been a lot of conversations online about things like earth spaces.

Stephanie Horton [01:00:11]:

So I hope to build something like that for kind of the feminine collective here in my town.

Heather [01:00:17]:

Beautiful.

Christopher [01:00:18]:

Fantastic.

Gina Cloud [01:00:18]:

That sounds great.

Christopher [01:00:19]:

It's been our honor to have both of you guest with us and share such authentic, real, raw conversation with us. It is. It means the world to us to have your trust and to share your heart with us. We'll never, ever take that for granted. Thank you both.

Gina Cloud [01:00:45]:

And I want to thank both of you and Stephanie, you in a second. But the two of you are so special. When we did the first interview, I felt such a kindred alignment with both of you, your hearts, your intentions, and the beauty that you bring to these conversations. There are very few people out there doing podcasting and interviews like this, and it's so deep and rich, real, and esoteric, and it's hard to bring those pieces together. And I just love you guys. I mean, anytime. And, Stephanie, it was really a pleasure to connect with you and to hear what you're doing.

Gina Cloud [01:01:24]:

And I love the wild women thing because that's actually in my book; the W stands for Wild.

Stephanie Horton [01:01:31]:

I love that.

Gina Cloud [01:01:32]:

So we're kindred spirits as well, and I just, this has just fed my soul. So, thank you all.

Heather [01:01:40]:

Thank you.

Stephanie Horton [01:01:40]:

And Gina, and Christopher and, Heather, thank you so much for having me. It's been amazing.

Heather [01:01:46]:

Each one of these is so special in its own way and the ways that we dip into the mind, the body, and the heart. And then next week will be the spirit, the interlacing that's happened in each one. And it was evident here today as well. It really just makes me feel so aligned with my purpose. So, I definitely feel the kindred spirits.

Stephanie Horton [01:02:09]:

With all of you.

Heather [01:02:11]:

So thank you for both of your time.

Christopher [01:02:13]:

And come on back next week. Two more sensational speakers and guests will share another rung on another level of this conversation. And you have been listening to the.

Heather [01:02:27]:

The Virgin, The Beauty, and The Bitch.

Christopher [01:02:29]:

Find us. Like us. Share us. Please come on back and Engage. Talk to us. Let us know how you feel about these topics. We'd love to hear from you. To become a partner in the VBB community, we invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com. Like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are Defiantly Different like you. Until next time, thanks for listening.