VBB 281 Amanda McCracken

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

It's a journey we all take. It's just that for some, the journey is a little longer, while for others, not so much. It's the journey of virginity. Everyone has a virginity story. Think about it. For women, that story typically has a far deeper meaning beyond just sex or ego. In 2020, we spoke with Amanda McCracken. She was a 41-year-old virgin who wrote a New York Times article titled, Does My Virginity Have a Shelf Life? It's a really compelling conversation, and we're thrilled to replay it for you here, but also to remind you to join us on March 18, 20204, the Spring Equinox, no less, as we host more conversations with authors, researchers, and experts about this force that doesn't get credit or the blame, but it initiates much of the shame and guilt women may feel around intimacy or being the good girl enduring joyless sex over a lifetime.

Christopher [00:01:30]:

Join us on March 18 as we introduce our four-part Virgin series. But first, enjoy this conversation with a 41-year-old virgin, Amanda McCracken.

Christopher [00:01:42]:

We want to welcome Amanda McCracken to Virgin Beauty Bitch. We are so excited for you to join us. For those who don't know the name, Amanda is a journalist who's written articles for the Washington Post, Huffington Post, Elle, Glamour, and more publications, too many to mention. But her life took a sharp turn after an essay she wrote entitled, Does My Virginity Have a Shelf life?, found its way into the pages of the New York Times. Welcome, Amanda.

Amanda McCracken [00:02:14]:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Christopher [00:02:16]:

We are pleased and peachy everything to have you.

Amanda McCracken [00:02:21]:

Peachy keen.

Christopher [00:02:24]:

Just to set you up to speed, Amanda. So Heather and I created VBB Virgin Beauty Bitch podcast to focus on three archetypes that we feel influence the life of women throughout their lifetime, as far as we can discern. And last year, I also wrote a book called The Virgin Beauty Bitch with the subtitle, Origin of the Man-Made Woman to emphasize where these words originate and how their influence on women socially and personally. Beauty is a pressure that women and Bitch are pressures that women have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. But Virginity, we seem to think that it ends on that special night. However, I believe personally that it continues on through the lifetime of a woman, that how it affects their sexual expression, the guilt involved, all those things stem back to this idea of virginity. Now, not very many people get to live the experience you have and being in your 40s before you gave your virginity. And we will talk about how that affects the big picture. But your story is absolutely incredibly inspiring.

Christopher [00:03:34]:

We wanted to share with our audience what you went through because, as a journalist, you chronicled your journey as a virgin. So we welcome you, and we would love to share your discoveries during that phase of your life.

Amanda McCracken [00:03:50]:

Thank you.

Christopher [00:03:51]:

Now for you. I heard you put a piece out on television. You did that. For a lot of people, the virginity thing either comes down to religious dogma, right? Which is to get married first before you lose your virginity. Patriarchal dogma, which comes down to your image or slut shaming. You're either unattractive, or you have a poor body image of yourself. So you don't venture into that field. You're approved or selfish or don't play well with others or whatever it might be.

Christopher [00:04:24]:

But for you, what was your inspiration for hanging on to this thing that we socially feel people should lose as quickly as possible?

Amanda McCracken [00:04:34]:

Well, it's kind of a complex question or answer, I guess I would say. For me, it has changed over the years. I did start out, and I have written about this in my teen years. I did grow up in the church. And I feel like when I say that, people automatically are like, aha, I knew it. I knew she was brainwashed. But there was that seed that was planted when I was 16 or 17. And I did take one of those vows of chastity.

Amanda McCracken [00:05:10]:

But at that time, to me, it felt empowering, actually. And it didn't seem like a big deal. Also, I was kind of a late bloomer. I didn't get kissed until I was 16. And sex wasn't something that was a pressure. So it was like no big deal. And then, in my early 20s in college, I think virginity for me was, again, I still didn't really have my first college boyfriend until maybe my senior year in college.

Amanda McCracken [00:05:44]:

I felt like while a lot of my girlfriends were starting to have sex for the first time, to me, it kind of felt like still something that felt empowering, especially in college, when it felt like other things in my life were spinning out of control. That was one thing that I felt like I still had control over. I feel like a lot of women also were feeling like they would have sex in order to build a relationship. And that wasn't really something I was interested in or didn't feel like that was something I needed to do. I also have compared it to, I think, a little bit was kind of maybe starting then I grew up as a runner, long-distance runner, and I had a lot of friends who had eating disorders mild to severe. And just as I think those eating disorders were really about control when other things in their life were falling apart, I think sex for me was a little bit that way. And I don't mean to say it in the way that I was like, I didn't mean to be mean to men.

Amanda McCracken [00:06:59]:

I think I actually got accused of being selfish and mean for withholding this, but to me, it was something that was still. I mean, I kind of hate to use the word precious because people cringe at that, but to me, it still was important. And I think as I got older, I did have a couple of relationships in my 20s where I did get really close to having sex. And those men left me or ended the relationship for one reason or another. And so that made me feel even more like, well, at least even if I'm in a relationship and it ends, at least I still have my virginity. And that might sound ridiculous to some people, but that's what mattered to me. Once I got into my thirties, I realized that this part wasn't quite as inspiring, but it could help other people along the way. I felt like my virginity; I still wasn't having sex because I wasn't getting into the committed and loving relationship that I said I wanted to be in.

Amanda McCracken [00:08:18]:

And not because I wasn't dating, but I was dating men who would never love or commit to me. So I was in a kind of self-sabotage situation where I would never get into the situation again, where I would offer a man to have sex, and he would deny me, which happened one time in my twenties. And so, I guess, what did it say? Once bitten, twice shy sort of thing. So, I had to stop that cycle eventually to get into the kind of relationship I was seeking.

Christopher [00:08:52]:

I get this sense you're being tugged on two sides here with what is considered socially acceptable at a certain age and then your own personal convictions. Now you're on with Katie Couric at one point, and she accused you of the tale princess syndrome.

Amanda McCracken [00:09:14]:

Yes. Off camera.

Christopher [00:09:16]:

That must have stung.

Amanda McCracken [00:09:18]:

Yeah, it did definitely sting. I really felt ashamed because I felt like, okay, here I poured my heart out. I was honest, and yet I felt like I was kind of being reprimanded by somebody that I really respected. And I'm glad she was being honest with me, but I felt like we live in an age where women are supposed to be, supposed to be supportive of each other, of choosing to do what they want with their own bodies. And I almost feel like if you want to tell everybody you're going to have lots of sex with lots of different people, that is more protected in media these days than telling people, no, I actually want to have sexual intercourse with a man in a loving and committed relationship. And I'm waiting for that. And that just really irritates people.

Heather [00:10:15]:

Why do you think that is? Before, I felt that society had actually flipped on that, where that was. It used to be what was more protected, and now it's changed.

Amanda McCracken [00:10:28]:

Right. That's something I've been trying to grasp. There's actually, I think people are intimidated by women that state this, almost like there's a sense of power. Actually, there are two things. I think there's that aspect, and if you look back at the history of Greek tragedies, there's a discussion of these virgin choruses. And there was great strength in these characters in the tragedies. And I think there's a bit of that that makes people really uncomfortable.

Amanda McCracken [00:11:09]:

And also, it's kind of like. I think the easiest thing for people to compare it to is diets. These days, sobriety is a lot more accepted. In fact, it's becoming almost trendier in bars. There are a lot more mocktails. But in the past, if you said, no, I don't drink, or I'm not drinking right now, it really made other people feel uncomfortable, as if, oh, are you judging me? Should I not be drinking that sort of thing? Or the same thing to do with a lot more people who are gluten-free. If you go to a party and you tell somebody, I'm gluten-free, or I'm dairy-free, people feel like it's a judgment on what they're eating. So I think that's probably a stronger reason why people have responded the way they have to me.

Christopher [00:12:01]:

I also think with the freedom of women's sexuality in the advent of the pill and et cetera, that if you are not expressing that freedom that you've now been given, that you are somehow betraying this freedom where the women have worked so hard to gain, you're wasting it.

Amanda McCracken [00:12:26]:

Yeah, I think that's spot on in a lot of ways. Betrayal is a good way. But I think actually women did. They certainly helped free women in a lot of ways in the 1970s. But I think they did women a bit of a disservice when it came to sexual freedom because I think there's this missing piece of intimacy that even if you're using your freedom and having sex with lots of men. I think that there are more and more women I've talked to who feel like they're not actually getting what they need. So it's kind of like binging again back to food without getting the nutrients they actually need.

Heather [00:13:19]:

What you've said, because what you're saying, I think, is like these different waves of the feminist movement that we've seen, but I feel that we're still getting there right now. But one of the main pieces, and you mentioned this as well, is getting to the point where we respect what each woman wants to do with her body, but in the same way, if she wants to have sex or...

Amanda McCracken [00:13:44]:

If she doesn't, yeah, I agree that that's something that we're coming around to, hopefully, with regards to respecting women's choices around not having sex if they choose not to and feeling safe. For me, a lot of it boiled down to safety, and I think a lot of people can relate to that, whether they're having lots of sex or no sex.

Christopher [00:14:10]:

One of the things that fascinated me about your story is that you went to great lengths to appease your own motivations for what you felt was right. You went to great lengths. You interviewed a lot of people from different forms, from consecrated virgins to professors.  You went to great lengths to justify your own abstinence. Why do you think that was?

Amanda McCracken [00:14:38]:

Oh, I guess I really questioned if I was messed up in the head. If I had wasted all my time. I think that was the biggest piece. Had I wasted all my time with several men that I hadn't had sex with that I knew I had incredible chemistry with? And I thought, in a lot of ways, my life has been about living incredible experiences, from travel to athletics or whatever it might be. And so I felt like I was living like a hypocrite in this sexual way in some ways. I mean, I was having other great sexual experiences, even if I wasn't having intercourse. But I thought, well, crap, have I just blown all these great chances to have this incredible sex? And so I wanted to talk to different people who'd experienced life in different ways and to see if there was kind of any glimmer in there that would, I don't know, either guide me in a different direction or give me some peace of mind that I hadn't screwed up, that I hadn't wasted my time.

Christopher [00:15:45]:

That you had made the right?

Heather [00:15:47]:

And it sounded like in the write-up, through that kind of journey and quest, you found the pattern and the type of men that you were dating, but also the pattern of what's even deeper behind that. So, it sounds like it was a quest that really got you to this next chapter in your life.

Amanda McCracken [00:16:13]:

I don't think I would have gotten to this point if I hadn't asked a lot of those questions. And this may seem corny, but I've always loved The Wizard of Oz, and it feels like it's kind of like the hero's journey sort of thing. Not that I'm calling myself a hero, but Dorothy had to go through all of these trials, so to speak, and she thought she had to speak to the wizard to figure it all out. But in the know, the good witch knows you always had the power to go home. You just had to believe it yourself. And I think for me, it really boiled down to believing that I really was worthy of love in order to be attracted to that kind of relationship that I wanted in order to have sex, if that makes sense.

Christopher [00:17:00]:

That line that you just mentioned, you are worthy of love. I think I read somewhere that that was a sentence spoken to you to make you understand how important you were as a human being, as a woman.

Amanda McCracken [00:17:18]:

Yeah, that's something Dave, my husband, told me about around last spring, maybe in April or so. And when he said that, I just wanted to jump out of my skin. No, you're a liar. You're not supposed to say that sort of thing. This does not feel comfortable at all. And that was telling in and of itself, I think. And he sat in that discomfort while I sat in that, and I think that was pretty powerful.

Christopher [00:17:55]:

That he didn't break where you were. You needed to break out of your shell, and he just allowed you to peck away till you broke out.

Amanda McCracken [00:18:02]:

Yeah, I think he gave me the space to change and to believe that I was worthy of love. And, yeah, that space. I think space and time were really important, and I think he was key in that.

Heather [00:18:20]:

It sounds like you also gave that truly to yourself, the type of man that you were starting to attract. Right. Because I feel like your agency in this with a person who was on your level and where you were at, I just think that it takes two to tango, but I'm seeing a lot of you giving yourself what you needed.

Amanda McCracken [00:18:46]:

Yeah, I think I was doing the work, so to speak, to get to the point where I would attract that kind of love, but it had taken a lot of time. And I did speak about writing in my journal. This was a suggestion made by my therapist to write in my journal every day I'm worthy of and ready for a deeply intimate and loving relationship.

Heather [00:19:14]:

That's beautiful.

Amanda McCracken [00:19:16]:

It came along eventually.

Christopher [00:19:18]:

So there's a happy ending to all this as far as you're concerned. You are, as you just mentioned, married now and pregnant as well.

Amanda McCracken [00:19:29]:

Yes. My five-month appointment is next week.

Christopher [00:19:34]:

Congratulations.

Heather [00:19:35]:

Congratulations.

Amanda McCracken [00:19:40]:

I'm pretty excited.

Christopher [00:19:42]:

I'm just curious about your take on young girls who are under this pressure of sex in order to feel loved and worthy, and their virginity becomes this bargaining chip for them to get what they believe would be a worthwhile payback in love. What would you say to young girls who are going through that process?

Amanda McCracken [00:20:13]:

Yeah, I've thought about that. In case I do have a little girl, and even if I have a little boy, it's important, I think, to say some of the same things. I think what's important, I don't have a prescription or anything, but I feel like it's important that girls feel a sense of safety. Girls or boys. I think it's important. I always said, ok, I'm waiting for love and commitment. I'm waiting for love and commitment. But to be honest, I really trusted Dave before I ever loved him and before I had the commitment.

Amanda McCracken [00:20:53]:

And I think that's something that all these other men that I was crazy about, not all of them I was crazy about, but especially the ones I was crazy about, I did not trust them. And I think really instilling in these girls and boys this sense of trust and knowing what that feels like is also tricky. I think that for kids to really understand, maybe that sense of trust is needed. But I think it's important, as kids are developing relationships, that they trust that person that they may be considering having sex with.

Christopher [00:21:38]:

So, just to set the record straight, you're not against sex per se; your journey is unique to you, but you're not judging others who have that kind of activity before marriage, so to speak.

Amanda McCracken [00:21:52]:

Absolutely not. Yeah. I would not encourage anybody to follow the same path that I followed. I don't think I would do it any other way. Maybe now, but I can look back and see where I faltered and the patterns that I wish I hadn't made. And I hope that, if anything, people can learn from my patterns and what I have seen along the way. But no, I don't expect anybody to wait until they're 41 to have sex for sure. Technically, I had sex before we had our wedding ceremony.

Amanda McCracken [00:22:38]:

We actually had one in September, 1 in October, and we're having another in May. So that's a whole other story, too.

Christopher [00:22:47]:

But I think what was important to you was the setting and the entire feel of that exchange. It was something that you were comfortable with, and that it seemed to me, anyway, from just reading about your expression of it, it seemed something of your choosing at that time, regardless of a ring or not. It was how you felt about it.

Amanda McCracken [00:23:12]:

Right. I think the choice is a huge piece of it. That's something I didn't mention when I was mentioning trust, but I think, yeah, that it's important when kids are deciding. If kids decide to have sex, that's their choice. I did feel a lot of freedom actually in having sex, as opposed to feeling worried that it wasn't going to get me what I wanted.

Christopher [00:23:35]:

So, there was no pressure involved?

Amanda McCracken [00:23:37]:

No pressure whatsoever. Right.

Christopher [00:23:40]:

I think that it is important to be aware of that. Whether or not you feel pressure in that moment or prior to that moment or not.

Amanda McCracken [00:23:50]:

That's really key. Absolutely.

Christopher [00:23:52]:

The other thing I wanted to ask you about was the virginity movement, basically sequestering young girls through religious dogma to abstain. How do you feel about that kind of dogma being put onto young girls as their guidance? It's not a personal guidance. It's more of a dogma that is determining whether or not this is the good girl or the bad girl.

Amanda McCracken [00:24:26]:

You mean like the purity balls, right?

Christopher [00:24:30]:

Yeah, that kind of thing.

Amanda McCracken [00:24:31]:

I don't like the mandate. What I think girls should be receiving is feeling empowered to have a choice and not pressured to have sex as soon as possible to get it over with. However, choice and freedom are, I think, more important than doing what the organization says is right or wrong. Because I think I felt like, in my gut, this was what I wanted. I was being persecuted by society and the media for following my gut. And that's part of the reason that I went on this journey. Interviewing, talking to all kinds of people, from the rabbi to this porn star, was like, I just kind of wanted to figure out if it was okay to follow my gut. And I think that young girls and boys need to feel empowered to follow their gut and feel like they have the choice and the freedom.

Amanda McCracken [00:25:33]:

The freedom to make their own choice with their own body.

Christopher [00:25:35]:

Here here.

Heather [00:25:36]:

Here here.

Christopher [00:25:37]:

We really thank you for taking the time to share your story with us and your expressions of your experience. Hopefully, the point is to get that perspective out to others so they can decipher this for themselves.

Heather [00:25:58]:

And with so much of society pushing girls and women in this direction, it is so refreshing to hear. Staying true to yourself through your choice of virginity and all the layers that came with it to where you are now. It helps each time I think you talk about this, which I'm sure is, I would assume, daunting each time to put yourself out there. But I really do think that it helps change the way scales for how women can approach their own sexuality and how men and boys also see how women are engaging with their sexuality.

Amanda McCracken [00:26:40]:

Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to share my story.

Heather [00:26:44]:

We appreciate it so much.

Christopher [00:26:46]:

It's our privilege to have you with us. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

Amanda McCracken [00:26:51]:

Thank you.

Christopher & Heather [00:26:52]:

And you've been listening to The Virgin, the Beauty, and the Bitch.

Christopher [00:27:03]:

To become a partner. The VBB community. We invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com Like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are Defiantly Different, like you. Until next time, thanks for listening.