VBB 280 Lisa Marchiano

Intro [00:00:01]:

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast: inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather.

Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:20]:

What is your life purpose? What are you here on this rock to accomplish? What gets you out of bed in the morning or occupies your dreams at night? Has it ever occurred to you that you have been chosen for something divine? Do you believe that, or why not? These are very confronting questions, I know, but you deserve to know the answers. So today, our conversation is with someone who might stoke a fire you may not even believe is within you. We say, welcome Lisa Marciano to Virgin Beauty, bitch.

Intro [00:01:00]:

Thank you so much. I loved that introduction.

Christopher [00:01:03]:

Now, Lisa, you are an award-winning author, podcaster, and certified Jungian analyst. I've come to know your voice as a fan of your podcast, This Jungian Life. And now I've come to learn more about your soul from your latest book, Vital Spark: Reclaim your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire. There are so many directions I want to go all at once. But let's say we start with you, Lisa. Like, there's a line in your book, and I quote, "I was once a young woman who wasn't sure she was good enough," unquote. So before the academic achievements and your personal professional triumphs, who was Lisa before discovering her vital spark?

Lisa Marchiano [00:01:48]:

Well, I think I, like many, many people, perhaps especially many women, but I think this is true for men, too. I had a lot of self-doubt. I had things that I wanted to do, but I wasn't sure I was good enough or perceptions that I had that I didn't let myself trust. I thought, well, no, that other person knows better than I do. And it has been the work of many decades to trust myself.

Christopher [00:02:22]:

And you find that repeating itself in the women that come to you through your practice?

Lisa Marchiano [00:02:29]:

You know, not for everyone. Everyone's story is a little different. I don't want to claim that what I've written in the book is universal, but I think many women would find at least something in it that resonates. And I do see these issues in the lives of the women that I've worked with.

Christopher [00:02:51]:

So, Lisa, what is the Vital Spark? What is that? What is this vital to know?

Lisa Marchiano [00:02:57]:

I think it's a connection with our sense of source, our own ground, our being, and, like you said before, that there is a purpose. Were we chosen for something? Who are we, and how are we meant to unfurl? And really, maybe that's the spark. And when we are connected with it, that's when we feel enlivened.

Heather [00:03:29]:

I mean, the title of your book is so captivating right from the onset. When we have conversations with women from all different walks of life and stages of life, it does feel like an aspect of self that women are reconciling with in their own ways in this generation and what other generations have told us womanhood is supposed to be or how we're supposed to act. And I've been very motivated by all of the conversations happening around releasing ourselves from expectations of what feminine is supposed to be and really stepping into what it means to you as an individual, not only for women but, as you've said, for men and all genders. What has your life discovery been like in understanding what feminine is to you and the women that you've worked with?

Lisa Marchiano [00:04:32]:

Well, this is such a thorny question because I think that we have to sort of define what we're talking about. Certainly, there is the kind of experience of being a woman in the culture and sort of what the culture expects from women, and that is changing, obviously, but there still are some broad cultural expectations about what it means to be feminine. Then, there is the psychological principle. So, Jung and Jungians use the term feminine a lot. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with women. It's more of a sort of psychological principle, and it's a little hard to define. And you start to get yourself into some dangerous territory when you say things like, well, the feminine is receptive. The feminine appreciates the implicit.

Lisa Marchiano [00:05:37]:

The feminine is associated with that which is whole. The feminine is dark, whereas the masculine is light. So there's this whole kind of list of contradictions, of opposites that we could line up and say, well, this is masculine, and this is feminine from a psychological standpoint. But that doesn't at all mean that those feminine traits are associated with women. And especially, it doesn't mean that they should be. So, it is not prescriptive. We're not saying women should be receptive. We're saying that that's kind of a psychological principle.

Lisa Marchiano [00:06:24]:

And we can all recognize, I think, that there is this kind of difference. And then I think, between these two energies, let's say. And then there's this thorny issue of, well, what do we say about women and the feminine or about men and the masculine? Because we could say the same thing for men, right? We can come up with this list of so-called masculine traits, like active and agentic and decisive and a bunch of other things, and then are we saying that that's how men should be, that that's how men are? Of course, some men might have some of those traits, but it certainly isn't the case that all men have those in spades. Not at all. I have many men in my practice who struggle with some of the same issues that I talk about in the Vital Spark. What can we say about those relationships? And I think it's very tricky. But I do personally believe that women may find it easier to relate to so-called feminine qualities and may have to work harder to access masculine qualities.

Lisa Marchiano [00:07:50]:

And maybe the opposite is true for men, too. I'm not prepared to say, but I think that all people need access to both sets of qualities and need to develop both sets of qualities in them. And as women, most of us are going to have an easier time accessing things like nurture and kindness and some of these more relational qualities, and we're just going to have to work harder to access the others.

Christopher [00:08:28]:

Very great opening to those opposites because you list eight; I believe, in your book of qualities, that women are encouraged, I wouldn't say need, I would say encouraged to develop for wholeness. Do you have a list of those eight? Please share them.

Lisa Marchiano [00:08:50]:

Yes. The first one is disagreeableness, followed by shrewdness, and then Trickster energy, desire, and sexuality. What is that five? Anger, authority, and ruthlessness.

Christopher [00:09:12]:

Now, I know that when I went down the list, it was like, check, check. I agree. I agree. Then you came to the last one, and it was like, whoa, okay. I know that even on your own podcast, there is pushback on that word. Can you maybe explain how you see ruthlessness in this mixture?

Lisa Marchiano [00:09:33]:

Yeah. Well, first of all, when I presented the book before, I had people say, I agree with everything you're saying, but I could never be x. Sometimes, it's ruthless, and other times, it's the Trickster. It's like, that's bad. First of all, and this relates to what I said a minute ago, I'm not saying that we should be any of these things like shrewd or ruthless, for example. I'm suggesting that we should develop the capacity to be those things, just like we should have the capacity to be kind and nurturing, but we shouldn't, hopefully, feel like we have to be kind and nurturing all the time.  If we think about these qualities as sort of like arrows in your quiver, we can decide in consciousness and choicefulness which quality is the best response to the situation in which we find ourselfves. So, it is certainly not encouraging us to be randomly ruthless. But when I think about ruthlessness, what I'm really talking about is the ability to do the hard thing that might be inconvenient for someone else or make someone else uncomfortable, but you need to do it in order to serve growth and wholeness.

Lisa Marchiano [00:10:59]:

For example, one of the little examples I give in the book is when I was seeing this therapist, and it just wasn't a good fit, and I didn't want to stop because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. So here I am; I'm going to this therapist every week. I'm paying her money. It's my energy, it's my time, it's my money. And I'm like, it's not working. But I'm like, no, I mean, I don't want to make her feel bad. So I had this dream where Tony Soprano was driving the car, or I think I was in the car with Tony Soprano or something like that. And it's like what does that dream mean? You know, the thing about Tony Soprano is, you know, some people, well, we had this discussion on the podcast, but Tony Soprano is not afraid to do the hard he, he, if he has to kill his friend, he'll kill his.

Lisa Marchiano [00:12:02]:

The dream came right as I was trying to decide what to do. And it was like, well, duh, Lisa, you have to go in there and break up with her. Of course, you know, it's going to make someone else feel uncomfortable, but it's like, yeah, it's like that little bit of ruthlessness. You know, I can't be worried about your feelings right now because that is not actually appropriate to the situation.

Christopher [00:12:28]:

I have something counter to that. Tony Soprano is an extreme example. I know. However, I wonder if women are being encouraged to nurture these other faculties of theirs. Because those that we associate with feminine say are not being cherished. They're not rewarded; they're not honored.

Lisa Marchiano [00:12:56]:

Yeah, that's a very deep question, and I think you're right. I think there is a way that the culture doesn't honor the feminine. I mean, like, writ large in the largest sense, just the way that capitalism works. And I'm not anti-capitalist, by the way, but the profit motive is not very connected with Eros or with relational values, for example. And it's kind of way out of balance in our culture. It's like we need both, actually. But I would argue that, like, you're saying it's way out of balance, but I think that as an individual, it's almost paradoxical like, in order to have our feminine qualities valued, we have to develop these so-called masculine qualities as well and know when to be in one and when to be the other.

Heather [00:13:57]:

You know, as Christopher said, even though these quote-unquote, traditionally feminine characteristics have been undervalued by society as a whole, there still is an immense amount of societal pressure for women to be, as you said, Lisa, agreeable or working towards collaboration or making everyone fit into this. You know, I just have so many personal examples and examples with friends where not being able to articulate what isn't working has stopped not only their own personal or professional development but also that of the group and that of a greater community. So, really, how much is at stake when we're not able to put forward our individual needs as important?

Lisa Marchiano [00:14:51]:

Yeah, I think that's a great example. Right. You might have a wonderful perspective that kind of comes from a grounding in the psychological feminine. But if you can't put it forward with a certain amount of aggression, let's say, maybe no one hears it, or maybe you don't create the boundaries around you that would allow you to kind of do the work, to develop it, then it kind of dies on the vine. So it is a real both.

Christopher [00:15:21]:

And I was fascinated that you open your book with a strong female character and it's not Eve, it's Lilith. Maybe share a little bit of that. People who don't know the story of Lilith and what the purpose of leading with her meant to you.

Lisa Marchiano [00:15:45]:

Well, so Lilith was Eve's first wife, according to medieval Jewish tradition and writings. Sorry. Thank you. Lilith was Adam's first wife. That would be interesting. That's a rewrite we should see.

Christopher [00:16:02]:

That would change everything.

Lisa Marchiano [00:16:05]:

It certainly would. But she refused. So, they were both made out of the same clay. And then, when Adam was making love with her, he wanted her to lie underneath. And she said, no, I don't want to lie underneath you. We are equal. We are made from the same clay. I don't want to do that.

Lisa Marchiano [00:16:29]:

And he wouldn't relent. So she left, and God sent some angels to get her, but she wouldn't come back. And then she becomes this demonic figure in the ancient world. She was said to be responsible for stillbirths or babies who died shortly after birth. So it was said that she hung around the child's bed and waited to snatch the child away. And she's also known as being a seductress. So, she would lure men away from the virtuous.

Lisa Marchiano [00:16:59]:

She was a demon in many cultures. And, of course, she's kind of been rehabilitated in recent decades. And there's the Lilith music festival and that kind of thing. But the interesting thing is that when God made the second wife for Adam, he made her out of his rib so that she would know her place. So, to me, Lilith is this kind of massive cultural shadow of the feminine. It's all of the traits that women are not supposed to have. This is the sense of what we usually talk about when we talk about the patriarchy, which is a term I usually avoid, but in the sense that women, I mean, you know, nature has kind of constructed this thing that we're all in. And it's given us men a certain role and women a certain role.

Lisa Marchiano [00:17:51]:

And both of the roles are shitty. I'm going to tell you, because men have to, in a traditional sense, right, writ large, men are supposed to go out there and spend themselves, they're supposed to exhaust themselves in physical labor. They're supposed to go to war throughout human cultures, right? They die young a lot of times because that's the role that nature asks of them. And they have to try to put themselves out there to mate, right? If you're thinking about it in evolutionary terms, it's a difficult thing for a man to find a mate. And this is based on research about this, that this is just a thing because of sexual selection. And women are the ones who select. Men are always up against that pressure, and they're always in competition with other men. Women, we have a shitty job, too, because we have to risk our lives in childbirth, which, thank God, it's not as dangerous as it used to be, but it used to be really dangerous. So often, women would die in childbirth.

Lisa Marchiano [00:19:12]:

And then, if we did have the baby, we had to just totally give ourselves over to this basically helpless being for years. And we had to do that again and again and again and depend on these men, who were sometimes violent or whatever, to help us get along because we had a kid. I kind of think both sexes have it hard. I just want to say that. But it's definitely true that by dint of sort of what evolution demands of us, we women are supposed to really kind of have to set aside our own needs a lot of the time in order to care for other people. Like the human race would not survive if we didn't do that. It would end pretty quickly. And so Lilith is an image of the woman who won't do that.

Lisa Marchiano [00:20:07]:

And so, of course, she's a demon. So, anyway, that may have been a long answer.

Christopher [00:20:15]:

But what role do you see Lilith as a symbol for women to follow? How do you see that in the world we live in?

Lisa Marchiano [00:20:27]:

Well, again, I think that we have to, as women and as individuals, grow into the fullest version of ourselves and develop our Eve qualities, if you will. We have to be nurturing, connected, warm, and supportive, all of those things that help us sustain relationships because relationships are so important. They're really the most important thing in life, period. Right? Relationships with your friends, your family, your children, your parents. That is what really kind of adds a lot of meaning to life. However, we also need to develop Lilith's qualities of fierceness, demandingness, assertiveness, and ruthlessness in order to connect to that deep sense of self and whatever. Chris, to go back to your introduction, Jim Hollis will say, what wants to come into the world through you? What wants to come into the world through you? And if we're going to bring that thing into the world, well, we're going to need some of those Lilith qualities.

Heather [00:21:46]:

I think that pairs so well with some of the heart of what Christopher and I do on this podcast with the names the Virgin, the Beauty, and the Bitch. We've had various guests on the show and people who listen in to tell us what their experience is with these three terms. And the bitch, for so many women, has become that Lilith quality where she's not going to lay underneath Adam; she's going to get on top of him, and she's going to take hold of her own life. Perhaps Eve is a blend of the two, although she eventually leads Adam down a different path. But we love to ask our guests, is there one of the three names that spark something in you, like a journey that you've gone on or a visceral reaction? We would love to hear it.

Lisa Marchiano [00:22:45]:

Well, I was thinking about that as I was looking forward to talking with the two of you. And part of me wants to say the bitch because I'm definitely not those eight qualities temperamentally, but I have had to learn to claim them as I write about in the book. And so I can find my inner bitch. It's still not a comfortable place, but much more comfortable than it used to be. But then I thought about the virgin. In the chapter in the book on sexuality, I talk about the notion of the virgin, which is something other Jungians have written about before, so it's certainly not original, but psychologically, the idea of the virgin is someone who is whole unto herself, and there's some really kind of beautiful imagery about it in mythology, for example. So I write about Artemis, who sits on her father's lap and says, I want to always be a. So she's sort of her own woman.

Lisa Marchiano [00:23:53]:

She doesn't live up on Olympus. She isn't susceptible to the passions that Aphrodite oversees. She doesn't have to answer to any man or any woman for that matter. She's kind of one unto herself. Obviously, that can be taken to a negative degree, where we don't have good, healthy relationships with other people in our lives. So it's not that that is an ideal to hold up above all others, but it is a place to strive for, and it is a place I think I've. Maybe I haven't arrived yet, but at least I can see the shore.

Christopher [00:24:40]:

I want to ask you a personal, professional question. Why Jung? Why not this Freudian Life? Why? And who is Jung to you?

Lisa Marchiano [00:24:54]:

So, okay, I'll give you the slightly longer version of that. My mother would sit at home when we went to school, and she would read the collected works of Jung. And in fact, some of my volumes that are back there over on that shelf are hers with her notes in the margin, which is super cool. But she would then tell me some stories from Jung, some of the stories from MDR, some memories, dreams, reflections, his autobiography, and some really compelling little stories that she would tell me about. And I was like, wow, that's really crazy. But then I remember in eighth grade, they made us take a personality test. They said like, oh, you would be good at this, this and this. And I got like, oh, you would be a really good psychologist.

Lisa Marchiano [00:25:42]:

I was like, not me. I would never do that. And then I went to college, and I was like, the last thing in the world I was interested in was psychology. Partly because my mom was interested in it. So why would I be interested in anything my mom was interested in? Then I graduated and did these other things. I worked in these other fields, and this was not something I was interested in. I didn't really have a lot of respect for psychology. The little I knew about it. I mean, the little I knew about Freud, which was a tiny amount.

Lisa Marchiano [00:26:16]:

And I have much more respect for Freud now. But it sounded so ugly, debasing and pathologizing. But then, when I found Jung. I found Jung at 28 because I wandered into a bookstore and had this kind of magical experience with this book by Linda Leonard, who is another Jungian analyst. So there's something that just seems so true about it, and it's kind of elevating because it sees us as all having a need, for example, for a connection with the transpersonal, with the divine. Not that it has to be explicitly spiritual, but it certainly is an ennobling philosophy and not pathologizing. And I wasn't interested in being a therapist until I found Jung. And then I thought, that is what I want to do.

Christopher [00:27:16]:

I found Jung in the movie; what was it called? This Dangerous Method, in 2011. This is going to sound weird, but I see Jung and Freud; I see both at a ball, at a dance. Freud is on the floor, with a partner, and he's showing everything he's got. He's just jiving. And I see Jung as someone also in a dance with a partner, but he is absorbing everything she has to give him. He's taking her in as opposed to having to show it off to the world. What he's got, to me, that's how they calculate in my mind as there differences.

Christopher [00:28:03]:

And I am absolutely absorbed with Jung's work, as you are, obviously. I just can't put it as eloquently as you do.

Lisa Marchiano [00:28:12]:

That's great.

Christopher [00:28:13]:

It's beautiful.

Lisa Marchiano [00:28:15]:

Well, I think that was pretty eloquent. That's a lovely image.

Christopher [00:28:21]:

But your book. Tell us about the book itself, and I want to give it some praise when you're done.

Lisa Marchiano [00:28:30]:

Okay. So it's called the Vital Spark - Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire. And it is available wherever books are sold. It's also available as an audiobook. And I got to read the audiobook.

Christopher [00:28:46]:

Yes. And you did a fantastic job.

Lisa Marchiano [00:28:48]:

And if you want to learn more, you can. Oh, thank you. My website is lisamarchiano.com, and you can find out more about the book there. And I think you can download maybe the introduction or something like that.

Christopher [00:29:01]:

I see your book as you're going to school, and it's really intense topics that you're taking, and then you get recess. Your book has a lot of recess.

Lisa Marchiano [00:29:14]:

Oh, that's great.

Christopher [00:29:15]:

With the fairy tales the movie references, bringing those images in, it's very three-dimensional. It's not just one heavy topic. It is very engaging and wonderful.

Lisa Marchiano [00:29:31]:

I wanted to.

Christopher [00:29:33]:

Yes, and you succeeded. It is a lot of fun. Be ready to get involved in a lot of fairy tales.

Heather [00:29:43]:

Bring new life. One of my favorite quotes from Yung is, where your fear is, there your task is.  I think some of the things that you've highlighted here today, Lisa, about having the capacity to develop aspects of self that, either from our perspective or in actuality, are harder to reach, are so worth cultivating and so worth understanding. So, I couldn't agree more with Christopher that folks should grab the audible or grab the paperback and dive into your book because it really is exceptional.

Lisa Marchiano [00:30:19]:

Well, thank you so much.

Christopher [00:30:21]:

So, I began this conversation with some bold challenges, and I think it's only appropriate that we also close with some challenges. This time from your book, Lisa, and I quote: integrating these traits will be difficult. Doing so will require you to grow beyond limited but safe conceptions of who we are. It will challenge us to explore forbidden rooms, give voice to prohibited thoughts, and wield new weapons. The call to learn cunning, the summons to sensuality, and the demand to claim desire will burst the seams of the two narrow garments we have sown for ourselves. We'll have to get used to being bigger. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

Christopher [00:31:09]:

We can't thank you enough. Seeing the feminine in your title really touched me because that's the word that brought Heather and me together. It's our absolute admiration and the power we see in that word that brought us. We are so completely different people, but that word brought us together to do what we do now. So I applaud that you have that as part of what it is, your message going out. So thank you for that.

Lisa Marchiano [00:31:41]:

Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.

Heather [00:31:43]:

It's been such a pleasure to get to chat with you. Lisa, thank you for joining us.

Christopher [00:31:48]:

And you've been listening to the virgin and the beauty and the bitch. Find us. Like us. Share us. Bring your friends. Come on back to become a partner in the VBB community. We invite you to find us@virginbeautybitch.com. Like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are Definedly Different, like you.

Until next time, thanks for listening.